1965 CJ5 Brakes...Carpenter becoming a mechanic...help

[Jcasey1966]

Fellow Jeepers, I think my brakes have the creepers.

Got the jeep (65' CJ5 Tux Mark IV) in the summer and have been going through fluids etc. Drives well. I had a local mechanic where I bought it put in new brake lines as I blew one of the lines on a test drive prior to buying this awesome Tuxedo Park Park Mark IV. since then, the brakes when applied were jerky, meaning the peddle was stiff and there was really no in between....the brakes would just "catch" and not lock up, but close to doing so. I got on the brakes hard yesterday a few times to stress them and peddle went to the floor. I had about 50% braking throughout the rest of my test drive. I inspected the Master Cylinder and had to fill it up to threads and now brakes are smooth...almost too smooth? I added about 3-4 ops. Now the Jeep stops well and smooth, seems more normal. Looking for advice.

Questions: I notice some grit on the master cylinder cap when removed. If there is grit in the lines, should I bleed out?

How do I know if Calipers are ok? can I test them? how do I know if I have all four brakes engaging? The Jeep doesn't pull to one side or not, but do front work and back do not? I have no idea. I guess I could put it on jack stands and spin in 4 wheel.?

I noticed a small leak around the dust boot for Master Cylinder so I ordered a rebuild kit off of Kaiser. DO I have to pull the whole Master Cylinder off the frame to rebuild it?

Sorry for all the questions. I hammer, square and saw won't fix this.

 

[Posi]

Congratulation on your new purchase.

Unless someone swapped in disc brakes your 65 does not have brake calipers.
Put the rear axle on jack stands and have someone push the brake pedal while you turn each wheel.
I would suggest returning the master cylinder rebuild kit and buy a reman master cylinder. The kit does not address bore wear.
I would suspect your rear wheel cylinders are leaking and not working as they should.
The quick brake grab can be caused by contaminated brake liners (leaking wheel cylinders comes to mind).
If your not short on cash don't piece meal your brake system. Brake MC goes for about $50 and wheel cylinders around $25 each. Brake liners as well unless someone swapped in disc brakes.
If you have the original brakes you need them working at their best particularly because of the 9" drums.

Side note: primary (larger) liner goes to the rear and secondary goes to the front.

 

[RiverandSand]

I would check all of the brake system, if any of the flex lines (rubber) are hard, cracked or weeping replace them. Yes I would flush the system. If the system is stock yours will not have calipers (disc brakes) but wheel cylinders (drum brakes). I would replace anything leaking master, wheel cylinders or flex lines. You don't want any leaks. Dot 3 brake fluid attracts water and eats paint, make sure the MC cap has a good seal to keep water out and brake fluid in.


Posi was quicker on the keyboard, what he said.

 

[mriplaybass]

I agree with Posi and River. I would add that for what it costs, I would just replace everything. Why take the chance? Wheel cylinders from someone like Rock Auto are $15 to $20 new. Don't take a chance with anything rubber like the hoses, replace them to be sure. As Posi said, you can get a rebuilt MC for $50 give or take. Unless you want to keep the Jeep totally original, I would at least upgrade to a 2 chambered MC: https://walcks4wd.com/1941-1966-dual-master-cylinder-replacement-kit-cj-models.html. Much safer than the original single chambered MC. A bit pricey around $275, but a whole lot less expensive than having to pay for major body repairs if the single chamber MC or a brake line fails.

 

[CJ]

Umm, you stated calipers? 65 had drums... Is your drive train original?
This info helps us help you.

 

[Jcasey1966]

Sorry. No Calipers. But I'm looking to do a disc brake conversion in 1965 CJ5 . Kaiser site shows $1950 for parts/conversion kits. Are there cheaper solutions that are equal in performance?

OH and BTW...found a great shop close that specializes in Land Rover and Jeep Great guys. Solid crew in Kennett Square PA. Palita's Automotive. 100 So, Walnut St. Kennett Sqr PA 610- 444-3089. Rare hard to find Rovers. Frame up restoration. They are putting my brakes on!

 

[Posi]

$1950 would be the price for them to gather the parts for you, or you could gather the parts yourself for around $AMC 150 $200. You would need to source a Chevy used 1/2 ton backing plate (I may have one) all other parts would be new from any local auto parts store.

I’m not sure what your paying for labor but your front disc brake job could potentially cost you $3000-$3500

The job isn’t overly difficult, replacing parts, some knuckle grinding, mod the MC, and add a residual valve on the brake line.

If you do a search on disc brakes on a Dana 27 should find plenty info.

 

[Jcasey1966]

I agree with Posi and River. I would add that for what it costs, I would just replace everything. Why take the chance? Wheel cylinders from someone like Rock Auto are $15 to $20 new. Don't take a chance with anything rubber like the hoses, replace them to be sure. As Posi said, you can get a rebuilt MC for $50 give or take. Unless you want to keep the Jeep totally original, I would at least upgrade to a 2 chambered MC: https://walcks4wd.com/1941-1966-dual-master-cylinder-replacement-kit-cj-models.html. Much safer than the original single chambered MC. A bit pricey around $275, but a whole lot less expensive than having to pay for major body repairs if the single chamber MC or a brake line fails.

thanks again for the reply. Im back working on the CJ5 65' Jeep this weekend. I checked out the Dual Master Cylinder you recommended. Others have said the same. Kaiser site says its only for 9" Drums. I measured the inner rim of the drop on the outside edge an it measures 10" the deep-back wall of the inner drum is a bit smaller. Can I use this dual master cylinder for 10" drums. Not sure why I would be restricted either way?

Best, Jeff.

 

[mriplaybass]

Can't see why not. The travel of the pistons against the top of the brake shoes is pretty much the same if I recall correctly, therefore, you are not moving any additional brake fluid with the 10" brakes. Where people run into problems are when they try to use a MC like this with front disc brakes. That does require a different setup.

 

[duffer]

I could be wrong but I thought the only early CJ's that received the 10" brakes were the 66-71 with the 225 V6 option. The rest were 9".

The 9" brakes get a lot of bad press but when on a STOCK Jeep, in GOOD condition, and PROPERLY ADJUSTED, they stop just fine. Note that these are not self adjusting and require periodic manual adjustment!!!!!

Another factor affecting brake function is leaking wheel/axle seals usually manifested as grabby brakes or a strong pull to one side or the other. You can usually see the leakage at the inside edge of the drums. This condition is pretty common on the closed knuckle front axles such as the D27 that should be in this Jeep.

Whether or not to upgrade depends on ones intended use. Frankly, the stock master cylinder is fine for a stock vehicle. I put many thousands of miles on those master cylinders in quite a few different Jeeps. I think the best upgrade for the buck is just bolting on a set of 11x2 replacement drums/backing plates from a later Jeep. Discs are indeed nice, especially so if you get the brakes wet. But I doubt they are worth the investment if you still have the F134 Hurricane under the hood.

If you have not done so, I'd suggest you search both Early CJ5 and the 3B Page as there is a lot of applicable brake information information on both sites.

ECJ5

CJ3B.info is The CJ3B Page

 

[Jcasey1966]

I could be wrong but I thought the only early CJ's that received the 10" brakes were the 66-71 with the 225 V6 option. The rest were 9".

The 9" brakes get a lot of bad press but when on a STOCK Jeep, in GOOD condition, and PROPERLY ADJUSTED, they stop just fine. Note that these are not self adjusting and require periodic manual adjustment!!!!!

Another factor affecting brake function is leaking wheel/axle seals usually manifested as grabby brakes or a strong pull to one side or the other. You can usually see the leakage at the inside edge of the drums. This condition is pretty common on the closed knuckle front axles such as the D27 that should be in this Jeep.

Whether or not to upgrade depends on ones intended use. Frankly, the stock master cylinder is fine for a stock vehicle. I put many thousands of miles on those master cylinders in quite a few different Jeeps. I think the best upgrade for the buck is just bolting on a set of 11x2 replacement drums/backing plates from a later Jeep. Discs are indeed nice, especially so if you get the brakes wet. But I doubt they are worth the investment if you still have the F134 Hurricane under the hood.

If you have not done so, I'd suggest you search both Early CJ5 and the 3B Page as there is a lot of applicable brake information information on both sites.

ECJ5

CJ3B.info is The CJ3B Page

Thanks you sir! Great Resources.

Onto the next issue...(1965 CJ5 )

I figured I would also replace the rear leaf springs as the right rear was broken. I ordered the correct springs from Kaiser "guaranteed to fit" and the length they sent was actually 44" vs what was posted on their site for that time being 46-1/8 ". I measured center of spring mounting hole to other center of spring mounting hole.

That said, does size matter? ha. The measurement from the frame bracket bolt hole (center)that is mounted to frame to the original axle placement and "seat" on the axle is showing a bit short whereby the spring bolt is not sitting into the axle bracket insert (Seat). If I slide the axle back from original position about 1/4 to 1/2 inches to make it fit, will I screw up the drive shaft and then ultimately the Transmission because is too tight or distance has changed. I made up the total 2" change by pushing the fare rear shackles forward to accommodate the other distance I'm short. Another way to ask the same question is, does the drive shaft itself have play in it or will the knuckles and linkage allow for small lateral (back to forward) movement in general?

OR....send em back and get the right size?

 

[cglax6]

Call them up and ask them if the measurement is end to end or center of bolt hole to center of bolt hole. Tell them what you have, and if it's the wrong size, they need send you the correct size.

Making something fit probably isn't your best bet when it comes to springs. There's play in your driveshaft, but if you shift things around too much, you'll bottom out or pull it apart as your axle moves up and down when you drive over bumps, etc. If it was me, I wouldn't mess with it and make sure I have the right stuff in there.

 

[duffer]

I doubt a 1/4" would affect anything but a 1/2" could leave you short on driveshaft spline travel. Using shorter springs is also going to stand the rear shackle more vertical and if too short, that may cause it to flip forward at which point there really isn't any shackle and you break the spring or the hangers.

I believe rear CJ5 springs should be 46" eye to eye measured along the spring.

 

[Jcasey1966]

I ordered new Front Cylinders for my 10" drum brakes on my 65' CJ5 . Kaiser is telling me I don't need to insert "Pistons" or I call them Push rods with the forked ends to engage or slip into the brake shoes as they were when I opened the brake housing up. the 13/16" cylinder they had in there were wrong and they should be 1" plus so I'm told. Regardless, they had the silver pistons/forked ends coming out each side that you could easily pull out and replace or use for the new Cylinder.

It just doesn't seem correct that Kaiser is telling me I dont have to use the old pushrods/forked pistons on their replacement 1" cylinder Item # 803639. they are telling me that inner piston (with a flat head no fork) will push all the way out fo the cylinder to engage the shoes. Essentially, a gap of 1/2" on either side with no contact with the shoe doesn't seem right?

 

[cglax6]

I ordered new Front Cylinders for my 10" drum brakes on my 65' CJ5 . Kaiser is telling me I don't need to insert "Pistons" or I call them Push rods with the forked ends to engage or slip into the brake shoes as they were when I opened the brake housing up. the 13/16" cylinder they had in there were wrong and they should be 1" plus so I'm told. Regardless, they had the silver pistons/forked ends coming out each side that you could easily pull out and replace or use for the new Cylinder.

It just doesn't seem correct that Kaiser is telling me I dont have to use the old pushrods/forked pistons on their replacement 1" cylinder Item # 803639. they are telling me that inner piston (with a flat head no fork) will push all the way out fo the cylinder to engage the shoes. Essentially, a gap of 1/2" on either side with no contact with the shoe doesn't seem right?

I took a look at the part # on their site. From what I can tell, it has its own pistons in it that will make contact with the brake shoes. Even if you tried to use the old pistons, you wouldn't get them to work, because there's no place for them to be inserted in their new cylinder.

After you install these, and when you bleed and add pressure to the system, those pistons will push out to the shoes and will keep contact. When you press the brake pedal, it'll push the shoes out to the drums...when you let go of the pedal, the pistons won't retract all the way back in, they'll keep contact on the shoes. Just need to get that initial pressure in there to push them out, then you're golden.