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Hey everybody I'm a little confused with the ignition on my 77 CJ5 . It has a AMC 304 with the prestolite box but it also has a motorcraft box on the pass side fender. I also noticed that there is some sort of little cylinder attached to the ignition coil and I dont know what it is. I included some pics im not sure why there are two boxes. Also thinking about the DUI HEI distributor and wondering whats invlved in changing the wiring.
Right now, only one '76 CJ5. 304 with a three speed stick. Everything else is pretty much stock 'cept for a 4" suspension lift. Came to me with a back breakin' 4" suspension lift attached to a reverse shackle setup (Reversed the reverse shackle :dung: and now she rides like a Caddy!) Also posess a few 60s & 70s Mustangs and a couple of late 70's F150s 4X4s.
1. Distributor. Prestolite, easy to identify by the plastic vacuum advance that always fails over time.
2. Ignition Coil. The cylinder gadget on the side is the capacitor that keeps ignition noise out of the radio. Should be connected to the positive side of the low voltage (Primary) coil connections.
3. Ignition Module. 5 wires. 4 should be in a plug together, but it looks like someone has had plug troubles and wired it directly to the harness.
5th wire goes directly to a fender screw 'Trying' to get a 'Ground Path' back to battery negative.
4. Voltage Regulator, on a '77, you should have a Motorcarft alternator and voltage regulator (Ford).
5. Starter RELAY. This vehicle doesn't have an accessible 'Solenoid'.
This is nothing more than a heavy duty electrical relay.
(Solenoids do MECHANICAL work, while Relays handle nothing but electrical current)
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DUI swap (GM HEI Clone) is a viable option, although expensive to do it 'Correctly'.
The DUI has the advantage of being a 'One Wire' hookup, and for the 'Electrically Challenged' that's usually a big deal, although there are better options.
DUI usually has a fairly safe track record, although there are a few things you should check before installing one in your engine...
SHAFT/HOUSING END PLAY.
The first would be to pull down the shaft, and gauge the gap between housing and gear.
This *Should* be between 0.015" and 0.030*. Up to 0.060 allowable, but over 0.060" and I wouldn't use it in anything before this end play gap were corrected.
The gear MUST move up/down a little as it works, but excessively TIGHT or excessively LOOSE and it will wipe out the camshaft gear.
HARDENED GEAR MATERIAL.
The second would be to take a 1/8" drill bit to the gear in some inconspicuous place.
If the drill won't drill into the gear, you can't use the gear that came with it.
Hardened gear on the distributor will eat the factory camshaft gear in nothing flat.
This is will documented, so it shouldn't be hard to find examples.
SEATING DEPTH/OIL PUMP.
The third would be to install the distributor FULLY, without a gasket in place.
*IF* it seats fully on the timing cover, then it passes the test.
Some of the Clones have shafts that are too long and press down on the oil pump drive.
Again, the camshaft (Driving) gear isn't long for this world.
GEAR MESH PATTERN.
Fourth, remove distributor and paint the gear with gear paint.
If you are careful, you can use white grease...
Install the distributor WITH GASKET, and crank the engine for about 30 seconds, or until oil pressure starts to show on the gauge.
Oil pump pressure is back pressure against the gear set, and it will give you a wear pattern, or you can hold the rotor back as someone cranks the engine.
Pull the distributor again, check the wear pattern.
The wear pattern *SHOULD* be VERY close to the center of the distributor gear.
If it's not, you have a gear made in 'China', 'Spain', 'India' or where ever and it's not going to work very well.
ONCE YOU HAVE CHECKED THESE THINGS,
And the HEI clone has passed the MECHANICAL checks,
Remember to put the gasket on it for FINAL INSTALL.
Then you get to find out if the electrical components work!
*IF* a little wiring doesn't scare the out of you....
Motocraft distributor, $60 to $80 including core charge.
Order for '79 Jeep with your engine, I-6 or V-8
Cap Adapter, Cap, Rotor, $35 to $40 for top quality.
Top quality plug wires, about $80, but you will need these even if you go HEI Clone, so that's a wash,
HEI style Ignition module, $20 to $25.
Aluminum or Copper heat sink, usually scrounged from a computer or a scrap piece of aluminum. Cost is usually zero since everyone knows someone with an old computer laying around or scrap pieces of aluminum laying around.
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Use the wiring to your current ignition module, coil and the two wires to the distributor are the only things you have to fabricate.
This will usually out perform the HEI clones,
The distributor will come in ready to install, no safety checks since it came out of a running engine and is EXACTLY to factory specs.
Since the coil is already wired,
The module wiring goes to the new module, you only have to put terminals on the wires and plug into the HEI style module,
And run the two wires to the Motorcraft distributor,
This is VERY easy to do.
The FACTORY cap has a location tab built into the CAP,
Your CAP ADAPTER version will need a locator tab you make (or salvage off a Ford distributor.)
The screw hole and notch for this tab is already built into the distributor.
You just need to find a screw and make or salvage a tab.
I'd make this out of a TIN can, instead of aluminum, since the aluminum cans are so thin now they don't like to hold the cap adapter in place...
This is VERY easy to make with some tin snips and a drill,
The notch in the distributor shows you the width, and with the adapter on the distributor, it will show you the height of this part...
The pictures show you the shape, location and how to install it.
This is the ONLY modification to the distributor you need to do to use the adapter, tall rotor and wider cap shown below, which increases the CONTROL you have over the spark energy more than you know!
Not mandatory, but keeps your distributor 'Plug In' to the factory harness instead of hard wired with no connectors...
This isn't a big issue, the distributor triggers RARELY FAIL, so hard wire eliminates another connector that has to be maintained...
But some people want to be able to 'Plug & Play' if the distributor trigger fails.
This connector pigtail matches the factory distributor.
There simply isn't any substitute for a top quality distributor cap and a good rotor.
This package has the cap adapter, tall rotor, wide 'Ford' style cap, and this cap simply can't be beat for the money! Just EXCELLENT for this application.
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MODULE.
GM HEI 'Replacment' from the discount 'sores', $20 to $25...
Order for a '79 vehicle, say Impala with 305 V-8 engine.
TAKE A GOOD LOOK, there are OPTIONS here,
You can hard wire to the factory harness, or you can use adapter plugs to have 'Plug & Play'
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The Module needs to be mounted on a HEAT SINK, to take the heat from operation out of the module.
This can be anything from an aluminum plate, piece of copper, to a computer heat sink.
The choice is yours.
Just remember to get some 'Heat Transfer Paste' or 'Heat Sink Paste' from a computer shop or from Radio Shack and use it between module and heat sink.
The HEI style module sets you up for an E-core coil.
You don't have to use an E-core coil, the module supports canister coil or E-core coil,
Switching to an E-core coil will give you spark plug type high voltage terminal and a little bit more spark energy in the mid RPM range.
I recommend getting an E-core coil from the salvage yard, late 80s through 90s Ford/Mercury vehicles.
Ford used a VERY HIGH QUALITY coil, and you can get that coil for about $10 including coil, bracket and connector while you are there.
Like I said, it's your choice, swap for the E-core or not, just two more splices to connect the E-core connector to the factory harness and mounting the bracket...
These are about $10 bucks more, but come with all 0° (Straight) to 90° spark plug ends, you can choose the PERFECT angle from 0° to 90° to get them fitting the way they are supposed to be.
Kit comes with cutting/stripping gauge, crimping tool and instructions.
YOU WILL NEED GOOD WIRES NO MATTER WHICH IGNITION YOU CHOOSE, SO THIS IS $80 OR $90 YOU WILL HAVE TO SPEND TO RELIABLY GET SPARK ENERGY FROM COIL TO SPARK PLUG GAP.
The deal is, you are spending a LOT of money and time on this.
THE IDEA OF THIS, OR ANY IGNITION 'UPGRADE' IS TO GET MORE SPARK ENERGY TO THE SPARK PLUG GAP.
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OBJECTIVE:
MORE USABLE SPARK ENERGY TO THE SPARK PLUG GAP.
PROBLEMS/OBSTACLES,
1. There are NO UPGRADES for the Prestolite ignition system.
2. The Prestolite MODULE works with no other distributor.
3. The Prestolite DISTRIBUTOR works with no other module.
4. As far as the 70s crop of electronic (Breaker-Less) ignitions go, the Prestolite was one of the more trouble prone and weaker of the bunch.
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GM/HEI CLONES,
1. EXPENSIVE for a 'Good' one, And you MUST do several checks to make sure the 'Better' of the crop will work correctly.
2. CHEAP Clones have issues that will harm your engine, from gears, poorly made housings and shafts, to timing curves that will harm your engine.
3. GM/Delco Remy NEVER made a HEI that will fit directly into the AMC V-8 engines. There is no 'Gear Swap' and off to the races Delco Remy version that was designed specifically for an AMC V-8 engine.
EVERY HEI IS A CLONE, MADE FROM 'CHINA' OR 'IMPORT' PARTS OF QUESTIONABLE QUALITY.
4. The basic GM/HEI or clone design has 'Issues' that you can't outright fix.
You can MINIMIZE the issues, but you can't totally eliminate them.
(I'll list them if you want them, but for time/space sake, just take that statement at face value)
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THE MOTORCRAFT DISTRIBUTOR SWAP,
1. The Motorcraft ignition system is MODULAR, you can replace any part of it that you want to upgrade, most at any time, replacing EVERYTHING all at once like you have to with an HEI isn't required.
(IE: Cap, Rotor & Plug wires, Coils, Modules, ect.)
2. The Motorcraft distributor was designed SPECIFICALLY for your AMC V-8 engine, so no fitment issues like with the HEI Clones.
3. The Motorcraft distributor is DIRT CHEAP, and like I said, you can change what the factory did wrong, meaning the short rotor and small cap...
4. The parts that work with the Motorcraft distributor can be varied, you can swap in an HEI module, a Chrysler style module, a CDI module, ect.
You can use a canister coil, E-core coil, ect.
Replacement parts are NOT proprietary, you can pick up what ever fails at ANY discount auto parts 'sore'... It's all 'Off The Shelf' stuff.
--------------------------------
OBJECTIVE: INCREASED SPARK ENERGY TO THE SPARK PLUG GAP.
1. Using the HEI module supports an E-core coil, a better E-core coil than the HEI factory or clones use.
That means more spark energy production at the coil.
2. Using an E-core coil gives you a better high voltage terminal (Spark Plug Type) so you can seal up that terminal from leaking,
And you will have a better electrical connection with spark plug type terminals.
3. A top quality BRASS TERMINAL CAP will transmit the electrical current to the spark plug wires better than a 'Socket' type cap.
4. The 'Ford' style 'Large' cap prevents cross fire and ground fire,
(Spark energy jumping to the WRONG terminal and jumping to 'Ground' inside the distributor)
Better than ANY HEI style distributor cap.
5. The HEI mounts the ROTOR right on top the distributor shaft and advance weights, these are all 'Ground Path' for the spark energy.
The 'Tall' Ford style rotor gets the high voltage up and away from the metal parts inside the distributor, helping to eliminate 'Ground Path' firing inside the distributor.
6. Good Plug Wires are a MUST!
Your wires and waste up to 80% of the spark energy you spent time and money trying to produce!
THIS IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO PUT CHEAP WIRES ON AND WASTE THE SPARK ENERGY YOU SPENT TIME AND MONEY TO PRODUCE!
No matter which ignition you use, getting the spark energy from ignition coil to spark plug gap is the OBJECTIVE,
SO wasting the spark energy with a cheap set of plug wires is counter productive.
7. Once spark energy reaches the spark plug,
You MUST provide a 'Ground Path' back to battery negative so the electrical current can complete the 'Circuit'.
Some COPPER based 'Never-Seize' on the spark plug threads prevents rust in the iron head threads, provides a good 'Ground Path' for that electrical current from plug wire, through the spark plug gap, and to the 'Ground Path' at the ground elecrode/threads/head connection.
A DEDICATED GROUND PATH WIRE to the cylinder head(s) keeps the electrical current from having to fight with head bolts/rust in the threads/thread sealer/a lot of cast iron in the block, ect.
These are all PRODUCTIVE THINGS that don't cost much, aren't hard to do and will increase the EFFECTIVENESS of your ignition.
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*IF*...
Your OBJECTIVE is to produce a USEABLE spark energy,
Then consider these things also...
It takes somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 volts to RELIABLY produce a viable spark 'Kernel' in the spark plug gap.
Voltage is only ONE part of the spark energy we are talking about.
Once Voltage Ionizes the spark plug gap,
Then the actual spark can happen.
The actual SPARK is comprised of two parts,
AMPERAGE & DURATION.
Amperage is the 'Heat' in the spark kernel,
Duration is the 'Time' the spark lasts in the plug gap.
If you see someone advertising 'Super Duper 50,000 VOLTS!' or more for an ignition,
Then you are wasting both Duration and Amperage.
Any time the coil has to waste making EXCESSIVE VOLTAGE, will REDUCE the Amperage & Duration.
--------------
The next part of this is,
The PLUG GAP determines the firing voltage.
When you see recommendations of 0.050" or 0.060" plug gaps, that is WAY too large!
To ionize that size gap, the discharge VOLTAGE will need to be EXCESSIVE,
And that will rob you of Amperage & Duration in the spark kernel.
Remember, it's the HEAT (Amperage) and how long that heat gets exposed to the fuel/air mixtures that gets the fire lit PROPERLY in the combustion chamber.
Spark plug gaps from about 0.035" to 0.045" will provide you with more than enough Voltage to allow a spark kernel to form in the plug gap,
While still leaving you adequate Amperage & Duration...
---------------
SO, I've been building and testing ignitions since 1975,
And for my money, I'd recommend the Jeep/Motorcaft distributor since it's SAFE,
It's very tuneable from the factory/re-builders,
It's EASILY upgradeable for the issues it has, which is the Jeep factory short rotor & small diameter cap,
With the MSD Adapter, Cap & Rotor combo ($35-$40) the cap/rotor will CONTOL the increased spark energy, and get that spark energy to the spark plug wires.
MSD 8.5mm Wires, cut to actually FIT your engine, will provide you with a reliable and LONG LIVED set of wires you don't have to wonder about, that don't leak your hard earned spark energy all over the place,
The use of an HEI style ignition module gives you RELIABILITY, low cost, easy wiring, and sets you up to use the E-core coils on the market/aftermarket/salvage yard.
The E-core coil will give better spark energy throughout the lower and mid range of the RPMs we normally run with these engines.
We aren't running 8,000 RPM race cars here, and the FACTORY E-core coils work just fine for us, and they grow on trees for cheap.
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SOME PEOPLE JUST HAVE A WIRING PHOBIA...
OR IF YOU HAVE A '77 or Older I-6 engine...
And if you have an I-6 engine, the GM or Clone HEIs are a viable alternative for the '77 older guys to replace Breaker Points or Prestolite ignitions.
The actual GM/Delco Remy HEI distributor housing/shaft will fit right in your engines without issues.
YOU WILL HAVE TO CHANGE DRIVE GEARS...
These distributors are everywhere in the salvage yards, they can be picked up for around $75 on the parts sites,
The gear is about $30 from a reputable supplier, or you can sometimes swap your existing gear onto the GM/Delco Remy distributors (if the shaft size will let you)...
I WOULD NOT PAY $300 TO $500 for a CLONE made of 'China' parts...
You can put one together from SCRATCH, less a good cap, rotor and plug wires for MUCH LESS and a little time, and know it won't harm your engine.
FYI, I have the DUI - Have had the "gears chewed issue" leave me on the side of the trail in the snow during rubicon trip, and have since got it all worked out and good...
If I had it to do over again, I would go Team Rush route for upgrading the ignition system.
I've tried point, electronic pick up conversions (pertronix), and the DUI.
Not to put too fine a point on the subejct,
But I am the 'TeamRush' that started the posts about what has come to be known as the 'TeamRush Upgrade' over the years.
A former AMC racer, the race team was called 'TeamRush' for many years before the internet was invented by Al Gore ,
And in '99 I retired as an ignition & fuel management research & development engineer and stared giving away what I was previously being paid for doing.
In '99 I took up the internet in a big way, and simply started delivering to the Jeeping community what AMC racers had been doing for years,
As in the Motorcraft taller/wider distributor cap, good plug wires, messing with the modules, coils ect. that I'd learned as an ignition engineer.
SO, take free professional advise or not,
Pay for some amatures advise that is trying to sell you something,
It doesn't matter to me,
I'll just lay it out from an engineering and proven research standpoint and you can decide what you want to believe or want to just plain use because it 'Looks Cool',
(I don't have a dog in that fight)...
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Now, remember, there is the DISTRIBUTOR, a mechanical device with a small electrical component (Trigger)
And there is the Ignition Coil, High Voltage Wires, Cap, Rotor, Plugs which are all strictly high voltage components.
Purely engineering standpoint points are,
The Jeep/Motorcraft distributor used in every V-8 & I-6 from '78 to '90 is a VERY good distributor.
The 'Stem' of the distributor that fits into the engine is kept relatively short and it's relatively stout, so it doesn't flex much,
The Centrifugal advance system is easy to adjust, and it's kept in the bottom of the distributor,
Reducing overall height needed, Reducing weight that can cause 'Wobble' at the top of the shaft,
And it keeps the centrifugal weights which are a 'Ground Path' for the high voltage out from under the rotor, which is a flaw in many other designs.
The Vacuum advance canister (can) is fully adjustable from the factory, one of the few factory distributors that had adjustable vacuum cans.
The Trigger assembly, (Hall effect trigger coil and Reluctor on the shaft) are ROBUST,
This trigger design throws a REALLY STRONG trigger signal.
Some other trigger designs are a little more accurate, but they are also WEAKER SIGNAL than this design.
There are factory designed, and SAFE versions for both I-6 & V-8 engines,
Remanufactured units sell for cheap, somewhere around $40 & $80,
And since they are FULLY ADJUSTABLE for both Centrifugal & Vacuum, they are a VERY good choice for a swap from breaker points or Prestolite.
They DO require a little more wiring than an 'HEI' Clone,
But there aren't any issues with them NOT fitting the engine and/or doing damage to your engine,
Either from mechanical problems or from the advance the 'Clone' folks put into the distributors they sell.
-------
The High Voltage issues...
With the Jeep/Motorcraft distributor secured and in place,
Then it's time to consider things like Rotors, Caps, Plug Wires, Modules and Ignition Coils.
HEI clones are restricted for space.
You use an HEI module simply because there isn't any room for anything else.
You use an HEI coil simply because there isn't room for anything else.
The Cap, Rotor & Plug Wires are usually what the Clone assembler (none of them make their own units, it's all parts assembled from 'China', sometimes assembled in 'China').
Even if you purchase a 'Clone' you will probably run what comes with it, or buy 'Discount Sore' parts to make it work.
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between 'Working' and 'Working CORRECTLY'.
No matter which distributor you choose/purchase,
The rules for the high voltage side remain the same, and usually where people screw up...
You spent time and money replacing the distributor with something else to produce more usable spark energy, just to lose that spark energy before it reaches the spark plug gaps...
High quality BRASS TERMINAL DISTRIBUTOR CAPS are an absolute must!
(one trend in 'China' distributor caps is to use brass WASHED aluminum terminals, they look like brass, but are actually aluminum)
There is simply no point in producing increased spark energy if you can't get it from ignition coil to ROTOR,
From ROTOR to DISTRIBUTOR CAP TERMINALS,
And from CAP TERMINALS THROUGH THE SPARK PLUG WIRES TO THE PLUG GAP.
SO,
No matter what you use, you need a QUALITY set of spark plug wires!
On a V-8 that means around $80.
The 'Cut To Fit' MSD 8.5mm street engine wires are about the best you can hope for, and they run around $80.
(we aren't talking the 'Street Fire' wires that are made in 'China')
You can pay more for wires, and you can get discount sore wires for less, but the least expensive wires that will actually do the job are the 8.5mm MSD wires.
Brass terminal caps are NOT made equally.
BLACK CAPS should never be used. The 'Carbon Black' most places use to make the cap black is an electrical conductor. (Carbon is an electrical resistor, but any conduction between terminals is bad)
The second consideration is the center button.
Good caps use a high quality graphite, while poor quality caps use 'Carbon' which blows apart and spreads conductive dust around inside the cap.
Anything conducive between terminals will allow your hard earned, and expensive spark energy to leak away, jump to 'Ground', or to jump to the wrong spark plug terminal, ect.
Some caps are designed with 'Ridges' inside the cap,
These are to discourage the spark energy from jumping to the wrong place and keep the ionized air stirred up so a direct discharge of spark energy can't jump where it doesn't belong.
NO Black Caps, NO Aluminum Terminals, NO Hard Carbon Center Buttons.
The rotor should ideally have a brass 'Nose' on it where the spark energy jumps from rotor to spark plug wire terminal.
Brass doesn't rust like iron or steel, brass is 'Self Healing' after the spark energy heats the metal to melting point and the site where the spark jumped cools down.
They simply last longer with fewer troubles.
With this in mind, consider the spark plugs themselves...
They are STEEL CASED, screwed into an iron or aluminum head.
Dissimilar metals tend to corrode each other. (Galvanic Reaction)
So some 'Never-Seize', particularly copper based 'Never-Seize' on the threads is a good idea.
This will prevent rust/corrosion and promote an electrical 'Ground Path' from spark plug to engine head.
The 'Ground Path' from engine head to engine block, with head bolt sealer, rust/corrosion on the bolts, head gasket, the inherent electrical resistance aluminum/iron has to high voltage all should be considered.
A dedicated 'Ground Path' wire attached directly to the engine head will give the spark plug gap a good, solid 'Ground Path' back to the battery to complete the circuit.
If you make that spark plug struggle for a 'Ground', you will waste spark energy that could have otherwise gone into getting the cylinder lit CORRECTLY...
--------------------------
Now, if you choose the Jeep/Motorcraft distributor,
You can correct some mistakes made by AMC/Jeep when they used this particular distributor/ignition.
The first being cap & rotor.
AMC/Jeep used a SHORT/SMALL distributor cap and rotor.
With the rotor so close to the distributor housing, there is a VERY tempting 'Ground Path' right at the housing.
With the upgraded/larger/taller (TeamRush Upgrade) cap and rotor arrangement, you move the spark energy at the rotor UP & AWAY from any 'Ground' Path' that might waste your spark energy.
The wider cap spaces your spark plug wire terminals apart and cuts down on the potential for cross fires, where the wrong, or more than one spark plug gets fired, wasting your hard earned spark energy...
When Ford introduced the electronic ignition, Ford used the taller rotor and wider cap for a reason.
Electronic ignitions produce considerably more spark energy than breaker points do, and you need to control that spark.
Where Motorcraft, either Jeep or Ford differ from GM/Delco Remy/HEI or HEI clone is,
They didn't put the coil in the distributor cap,
And they don't have the distributor shaft right under the rotor.
Coil frame is a 'Ground Path', so is the distributor shaft.
These were both mistakes in engineering/electrical terms since they attract your spark energy away from the intended spark plug terminal in the cap.
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Spark energy production is Limited mostly by the SIZE limitations of the E-core coil in the cap of an HEI/Clone.
With a Jeep/Motorcraft distributor, upgraded cap or not, you can use the GM or Ford version of an EXTERNAL E-core coil for substantial spark energy increase from the ignition coil.
The system is modular, so you can change/upgrade any part of it as you go along, or better technology comes along we can adapt for use...
(Like switching to an E-core coil instead of using a canister coil, Upgrade to wider 'Ford' cap with better plug wire terminals, ect.)
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Like I said, some people have a 'Wiring Phobia' and don't want to connect the 6 wires required for any ignition to work,
Some people don't understand the difference between DESIGNED FOR your engine, and something someone has had made in 'China' that might, or might not work correctly, or just be outright dangerous to your engine...
Some people have had good success with an HEI clone,
Others have had their engines fail completely,
And still others have had everything in between....
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The other argument I hear is WIRING between coil, module and distributor, and this is a CONSTANT complaint from guys...
If you are doing a Replacement,
Simply mount the module on the distributor you are using.
Doesn't matter WHICH distributor it is, all it takes is two screws and a flat piece of aluminum to make the mount.
The coil is ALWAYS just a few inches away, and if you complain about that, there is something wrong with you...
I've been mounting modules on the distributor conversions for YEARS when we install fuel injection and prep the distributor for the fuel injection modules...
There is virtually NOTHING to it, and anyone with a drill & half a brain can do it. (I'm proof! I have half a brain working most times!)
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ANYWAY, no matter which you choose,
The mechanical & electrical basics stay the same.
Well designed cap with brass terminals,
Rotor that resists 'Ground Fire' to shaft or housing,
GOOD PLUG WIRES, since plug wires can waste up to 80% of your hard earned spark energy,
Common sense in your approach, Running wires all over the place with no concern to what they are against will always net you poor results.
out of you....
,