79 CJ to newer PS box

[jeepboy45]

I have been following along the "tie rod flip" thread and learning a lot along the way. But while I am thinking of that mod, I want to get rid of my factory PS gear box and prob the drop arm as well.

Currently my 1979 CJ7 is down with tranny probs and during the down time I am going to try and get rid of the sloppy/dangerous steering issues I have. I have been white knuckling the wheel on the highway for nearly 25 years.


Steering is very sloppy and I would like to change the steering box because I think that is where a lot the prob originate from. But I cant afford to drop 2 or 3 hundred bucks on a brand new aftermarket kicka** box, so my alternatives are.....?

1.) I could get a used CJ era box and hope it is better than my current one.

2.) I could swap for one of a later CJ and again, hope it is better than my current one.

3.) I have been told that in 79 my gearbox uses flare fitting hoses, and that later ones changed to o-ring style. However there are adapters to allow the o-ring box to be hooked to my factory flare hoses. How new of a steering box can I use? YJ, TJ, LJ? Obviously I'd like to get the newest model box and hope it is way tighter than mine with 200K on it. But are there any bolt-up issues, or other issues I have not planned on?

Has anyone done this?

What is my biggest bang for my buck?

I found a local guy with a "tight" box from a YJ, but he doenst know what year it is out of. In theory, it could be as old as 1987.

HELP PLEASE!!!

BTW: awesome site. awesome members. fantastic data.

brian

 

[BusaDave9]

I hate to rehash the basics but are you sure the problem is the steering gearbox and not bushings or steering linkages with slop? I'm sure you checked this out, I just don't like recommending a new gearbox to find out that didn't help the issue.

Okay now. The Jeep uses a Saginaw Steering gearbox. They were used on lots of vehicles. If you get one that is not exactly the same, the difference is that some were held on with 3 bolts and some with 4. I think there is always 4 tabs but sometimes one tab isn't drilled and tapped.

 

[jeepboy45]

@Busa:
I had my son "play" the wheel back and forth while I held on to the pitman. The steering wheel was being played back and forth approx 5 inches, and there was no movement at the pitman arm. Slightly more movement at the steering wheel, and I began to feel movement at the pitman.

Honestly I dont know how much back and forth movement of the steering wheel should be present before "engaging" steering..

thanks
brian

 

[mylittlecj5]

There is also some variants in the Saginaw boxes internally. The Full size Jeeps used a variable ratio steering gear in the box that makes the CJ handle sooo much better than the fixed ratio box its surprising.
IMO, the new hi(er) dollar box is worth the cost and trouble to install if thats actually whats wrong with your steering, or you want to upgrade after 25 years...

 

[BedneckKustumz]

I have been following along the "tie rod flip" thread and learning a lot along the way. But while I am thinking of that mod, I want to get rid of my factory PS gear box and prob the drop arm as well.

Currently my 1979 CJ7 is down with tranny probs and during the down time I am going to try and get rid of the sloppy/dangerous steering issues I have. I have been white knuckling the wheel on the highway for nearly 25 years.


Steering is very sloppy and I would like to change the steering box because I think that is where a lot the prob originate from. But I cant afford to drop 2 or 3 hundred bucks on a brand new aftermarket kicka** box, so my alternatives are.....?

1.) I could get a used CJ era box and hope it is better than my current one.

2.) I could swap for one of a later CJ and again, hope it is better than my current one.

3.) I have been told that in 79 my gearbox uses flare fitting hoses, and that later ones changed to o-ring style. However there are adapters to allow the o-ring box to be hooked to my factory flare hoses. How new of a steering box can I use? YJ, TJ, LJ? Obviously I'd like to get the newest model box and hope it is way tighter than mine with 200K on it. But are there any bolt-up issues, or other issues I have not planned on?

Has anyone done this?

What is my biggest bang for my buck?

I found a local guy with a "tight" box from a YJ, but he doenst know what year it is out of. In theory, it could be as old as 1987.

HELP PLEASE!!!

BTW: awesome site. awesome members. fantastic data.

brian

I am having the same issue with my 83 CJ5 , but fortunately I have a friend that runs a mechanic shop. He gave me a box off of a 95 YJ. They both use 4 bolts to mount, but the YJ box looks a lot larger. I'm wondering if there will be any issues other than figuring out the pitman arm setup?

 

[jeepboy45]

I am having the same issue with my 83 CJ5 , but fortunately I have a friend that runs a mechanic shop. He gave me a box off of a 95 YJ. They both use 4 bolts to mount, but the YJ box looks a lot larger. I'm wondering if there will be any issues other than figuring out the pitman arm setup?

Hmmmm .. let me know how easy/difficult it is.
I've heard about potential issues with pitmans, and steering shafts.
Local shop told me that later ones use an o-ring PS line and your older CJ (like mine) uses flare lines. However there is an adapter that allows the use of your old lines in the new unit....

 

[Jimbos76cj]

The Florida Jeepers Offroad Association :: View topic - new jeep wagoneer steering box

$AMC 150 for a new waggy box. 3.5 hour drive though.

 

[jeepboy45]

To anyone who might be following this, I have a question

I got my old box out...
Pain right in the <-BAD WORD->!! mostly just because I couldnt crack the lines off the PS gearbox, even with a line wrench. Had to pull the steering shaft, and pump with it. then disassemble on the bench..

Here is the question. Take a look at the pics below. The steering shaft mated to my factory box with the "bell" and clamp. I have been told that the imput on the new J20 box would have different splines and sized differently. However, the old bell DOES slide onto the J20 imput shaft ! What I am wondering is this:

Look closely at the imput shafts. The CJ shaft is flat, but the J20 has a "nub" that extends out, limiting how far I can actually put the "bell" on it. Can I cut this off so it is flat like my CJ imput, allowing me to slide the bell on all the way and use the original coupling??

HELP !!! I should be working from home today, but it is so hard to do that with the weather as awesome as it is, and the jeep stuck in the garage. Trying to get it back together ASAP

 

[nsargeant]

yeah you need to go ahead and cut that off.

nathan

 

[jeepboy45]

Just got home from kids soccer game and back to the jeep...

The only thing I dont like about cutting it off is this...
If you look at the CJ box, there are splines down the imput shaft, except for the notch where the bolt goes...(lots of contact area for the splines inside the "bell"......
But the J20 shaft has a notch all the way around the shaft, limiting the contact area the "bell" will have on splines. Maybe I am way overthinking this.

I alter guns sometimes and "fit" parts. When you cut a part to fit, you should always cut the cheaper part (the trigger--not the frame).. Guess I am hesitant about cutting the imput shaft, but I need to get over that...

 

[nsargeant]

jeepboy,

here are a couple of post from the jeepforums that mention cutting the "nipple" off of a j20 box. In the end you can do what you want, these will just help ease your conscience a little bit.

and mods don't ban me for linking to another forum please.
Manual to Power Steering Conversion - JeepForum.com

J20 steering upgrade question - JeepForum.com

Nipple Problems - JeepForum.com

nathan

 

[jeepboy45]

jeepboy,

here are a couple of post from the jeepforums that mention cutting the "nipple" off of a j20 box. In the end you can do what you want, these will just help ease your conscience a little bit.

and mods don't ban me for linking to another forum please.
Manual to Power Steering Conversion - JeepForum.com

J20 steering upgrade question - JeepForum.com

Nipple Problems - JeepForum.com

nathan

thanks Nathan...Very good info...Going to cut it off as soon as I investigate the following information and switch splined ends.

BTW for anyone else with coupling issues. I noticed last night that the splined coupling on the imput shaft appears to be held on with a rollpin. I spoke with Fenco (the remanufacturer) this morning and confirmed that. So I am gonna try and remove the roll pins and switch the couplers.... That will solve all the issues, except cutting off the nub, but that is a no brainer...

thanks again

 

[jeepboy45]

Maybe I just got real lucky...dunno... but there were no issues with rag joint conversions, different splines, cutting off ends of steering shafts to mate with .... blah blah...

I considered driving out the retaining pin that holds the splined end to the imput shaft (as the guy from Fenco said I could do) but it only resulted in 2 broken center punches.... I'll give them credit for driving them in and not intending on them working their way loose on by themselves. Actually Saginaw should get the credit... (Can I bill them for the broken punches? prolly not) Bailed on that idea and just hooked up the stock bell coupler...

Cut off that little nub and DONE. Bolted right up.. However while I was monkeying around with the PS box on the bench I managed to break that damn little potmetal "retainer" that goes inside the bell coupler... it kinda "locks" onto the two square "bearings". I really dont wanna spend $40 on a whole new bell to get that little $2 part.... AARG!!

Thanks to everyone who sent links, and gave their imput and 2 cents. I learned a lot of cool stuff even though I didnt need to do any fab'ing myself this time.

 

[jeepboy45]

OK.... nearly done with this project...

BUT..........................

Well since I broke the bearing retainer (little POS springy thing) that is housed in the bell connection at the gearbox, I had to wait a few days to put in the gearbox.

Just got the part kit from Morris 4x4 and put the intermediate shaft to the bell, and put it all back in its home....! Hoses hooked up, etc etc,,


HOWEVER, I HAVE A QUESTION:::::::

While both boxes were on the bench, I noted a couple of things. On the bench with no limitations, the original CJ box gave me 3.75 turns lock to lock.... The J20 gave me 3.20 turns lock to lock....

HOWEVER when I put the new box (J20) back in the Jeep, I only have 2.5 turns... Should I be adjusting the bolts on the knuckles that limit travel?

Or is that the correct amount of turns I should expect from my CJ?

The main reason I am asking is that many years ago when I had the steering apart, I must have put something together wrong. I was able to turn tighter in one direction that the other. Not totally sure what the heck I put together funky, but hopefully not this time. BTW: I dont believe I have EVER messed with those travel limiting bolts. I was just curious.

thanks to anyone who is still listening to me ramble..
brian

 

[jeepboy45]

anyone?

 

[jeepboy45]

Thanks to anyone who replied during this thread..

Got it running, and I'll say that getting the new PS box was a fantastic repair/upgrade. I cant say that the J20 box was definitely better than a new CJ7 box, because I've never replaced the box before. I can say that my old box needed to be replaced.

It finally repsonds to steering imput...It used to handle more like a boat, with about 3 inches of play in the wheel. Just working the wheel on the highway back and forth to keep it under control was enough to give me white knuckles from time to time...

 

[nsargeant]

jeepboy,


good to hear you got it working.

nathan