Can this shackle change caster?

[UpTheCreek]

Hi, new to the site and working on a "new to me" 1978 CJ7 .

After driving this Jeep down the road, I figured it wouldn't be a serious issue to adjust. It is just all over the place, darty and going over a bump will send you in another direction!

Anyway, after reading up here and elsewhere, I can plainly see that my Jeep has a negative caster. It's obvious, didn't even need to measure any angles. I got to looking at it and wondering why it would be so drastically changed from stock. Then I looked at the huge front shackles someone had fitted it with prior to me. (Photo attached)

My question: Will going back to stock length shackles change my caster from negative to positive? I figure they've got to have some effect.

Thanks and open to any opinions! I haven't had a CJ in 30 years and when I did have one, I was 19 and knew nothing about them!

Howard

 

[Sasquach]

I don't think anyone can predict what your caster will be after replacing your shackles with stock but one thing is for sure if you go shorter in length it will improve. Not sure but your springs do not look stock to me either.

 

[BusaDave9]

Stock shackles are 3 inches long. I don't think your present shackles are much different than that.
I don't think caster will change noticeably.

 

[UpTheCreek]

I can't speak to the springs. It's running 33" BFG A/T's and seems to have plenty of clearance, so I know it's not stock. I just don't have the info nor the experience to know what it has suspension-wise. I do know it's pretty dang stiff.

I do know that I want decent road manners and am willing to spend a good buck to get this Jeep correct. I don't like the idea of shims nor am I crazy about shims. What are my alternatives? Go for a new suspension kit?

 

[CJs 7]

I just went through this with mine. I have a 4.5" Rubicon Express lift, which is a very nice and complete setup. That being said, it still screwed up the caster angle. It was drivable, but it was a little more of an adventure than it should have been, bad enough that I didn't let anyone else drive it. I measured my caster at about 2.5 degrees as it sat w/ the lift. I happened to have a set of 2 degree shims laying around so I stuck them in there and it made a huge difference. Then I spent $80 bucks to have a re-alignment just to verify, it drives great now, no issues at all.

 

[gert]

Short of grinding off the shock pads the shims are the best way to go to improve your caster

 

[Kane]

Those shackles look like stock length to me but look at those springs. The leaves are very think, they do not have any wear pads in between the leaves for friction reduction, they are not tapered and the clamps wrap fairly tight to the next leaf. All of those factors will give your a very stiff ride. I think those need to go to the trash can.
It would be my guess that a quality spring would fix a lot of your issues.

 

[UpTheCreek]

Yep, I'm in for some suspension changes. I don't care for a sky high lift, Jeep will get some light wheeling but I definitely want it streetable. Hows about something like the OME kits? I've always heard good things about them:

Jeep CJ OME lift

 

[gert]

OME is good...look at converting to the Wrangler YJ springs for a softer ride its real easy

 

[PaStomper]

They are good lift kits. You may also want to check you toe in it should be about an 1/8" closer on the front side of the tire then the rear. Also unless the springs rotates the axels nothing should have changed with the camber (tilt on the tire from top to bottom). Castor really doesn't come in to play because it is a solid axel. Caster is how flat the tire tread will stay during up and down movement ( like a cars suspension) or travel.

 

[UpTheCreek]

Thanks guys......I believe I might go with those Wrangler springs. Looks like just what I'm after.

I'm fortunate right now, for once in my life I actually have some funds to do what I want. This is going to be fun......

Oh, here are some photos of my project. I am replacing the seats with low backs (because I am a traditionalist) and installing a backseat. It's a AMC 304 , T-150 tranny.

 

[UpTheCreek]

Appreciate everyone's help! Thought I'd continue this thread instead of confusing things with a new one.

I have decided to go with a Wrangler Conversion Kit from Rocky Road and believe I'll go with the OME springs instead of stock wrangler, thinking I'd like to retain the lift I have now at least. However, I need some opinions on the rates I should go with at the bottom drop-down box here. Choices are:

Front

• Old Man Emu, YJ Front Medium
• Old Man Emu, YJ Front Heavy Duty

Rear

• Old Man Emu, YJ Soft
• Old Man Emu, YJ Heavy Duty

I'm pretty sure I want the medium rate for the fronts, but the rears I'm not so sure. I don't want it stiff in the back, but would the soft have any negative effects on the street? Maybe too soft? Again, Jeep will see pretty light duty trail use.

Thanks, any opinions appreciated!


Howard

 

[csuengr]

Shackles look good. Need to check the alignment. Toe out will also cause the Jeep to wander, as did mine. You also need to check all the steering components to make sure they are good. It is hard to check camber with ones eyeball.

And just so we is all on the same page, this is how we is dephining caster.

 

[UpTheCreek]

Very true, I have yet to have it aligned and I absolutely need to do that. But I didn't just eyeball the caster though, I put my big framing square on absolutely level ground, held my 4 ft. level parallel against it and with that perfectly perpendicular to the ground, I could plainly eyeball that the caster was negative. All else appears (and feels) quite good and tight with the steering components. It feels nice and tight while driving, aside from being darty and all over the place! The photo I posted on the 1st page of this thread really doesn't show it, but if you looked under there and saw the alignment of the upper and lower ball joints, you'd say, "oh yeah, that's definitely negative caster". It's really pretty obvious.

I had planned on changing out the springs very soon anyway, so this speeds it up by a month or two. I don't want to bother working out the caster problem twice, so to speak. But your point is well taken, first thing I do when I install the new springs is get it aligned properly.

Thanks.....any opinions on the different OME spring rates?

 

[BusaDave9]

Extra long shackles can change the caster even to the point of negative caster but your shackles don't look that long. How long are they? Measure them.

As for the springs, it's odd that you can't get them to match. Keep in mind that you sit much closer to the rear axle. The rear springs have a bigger affect on how hard the ride is. You may want soft springs for a better ride on the street. Just my opinion. I don't want to decide for you.
Now if it was me I would go for the Heavy Duty springs front and rear. If you buy soft ride springs a CJ still never seems very soft.

Also I'm not sure if I understand how you measured your caster. It could be measured by checking to see how far the top ball joint is behind the bottom ball joint. Maybe that's what you did. I guess I just don't understand.

 

[UpTheCreek]

I'll go measure them right now....brb!

 

[UpTheCreek]

Shackles are 4", center of bolt to center of bolt.

My explanation wasn't great. The center of the upper ball joint is approx. 1.5" further towards the front than that of the lower ball joint. Just a guess, but maybe 3 or 4 degrees?

Oh, and I tend to agree with you on the springs. Must be a reason they don't have an even match but I am leaning toward "soft" for the rear.

 

[csuengr]

You might also check to see if there are wedges between the springs and the axle. There shouldn't be any.

 

[UpTheCreek]

Lost power last night in the middle of my typing. No idea why, but it was out for 4 hours!

No wedges or shims.

Anyway, I'm going to call Rocky Road today and ask some questions. Will most likely order the medium front and soft rear and work from there. I have no clue what kind of springs are on it now but am going to start fresh.