DOT Approved?

[Peanut Butter]

I know that they has been a lot of discussion on here with regards to the use of Heim Joints in Jeep suspensions and them NOT being DOT approved. So I did some digging around on a lot of different government web sites. Couldn't really find anything related to the use of a heim joint as a suspension part. I went to the DOT.gov site and the NHTSA.gov site. So I wrote the NHTSA and asked about the heims. Here is the reply I got:

Mr. Vorndam,

NHTSA does not provide “DOT Approvals.” Rather, manufacturers self-certify their products for compliance with applicable Federal safety standards.

Relative to heim joints, there are no Federal safety standards that have requirements for this item of equipment. However, if there were a defect in performance that was deemed a safety concern, it would be covered under NHTSA’s defect authority.

Whether or not vehicles incorporating heim joints can be used on public roadways is a question for the Texas DPS.

Hope this helps.

Regards.


Mike Cole, Chief
Crashworthiness Division

Department of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance
Code: NEF240; Location: W45-311
1200 New Jersey Ave., SE, Washington, DC 20590[/SIZE]

I checked Texas law and could not find any references. I haven't found anybody to write to for calcification. But I believe I can now say that the blanket statement: "Heim Joints are not DOT approved." is not entirely true. They would have to be a reoccurring safety issue to be addressed. If I have missed something here please feel free to speak up. But I hope this helps clarify their usage. And as with all modifications to OEM vehicle parts, due diligence and proper maintenance must be used.

 

[Torxhead]

Interesting there P.B., but I have noticed that there is no lubrication to those units and I would think being used much for street driving they would wear down and could even break. I recall hearing that a standard rod end can last to around 40k miles, and I have used them for much longer.

 

[Peanut Butter]

I'm not really sure how that works. I'm thinking a good cleaning and then maybe some Teflon spray. Only reason I bring this up is that's the go-to suspension part for four link and three link mucho grange travel suspension. Now most of the time those are off-road only vehicles, but I've seen pictures of them on street vehicles too. I've also seen boots for them to keep the dirt out.

 

[Torxhead]

Come to think of it they might be stronger than a standard rod end as there is no grease hole running through them like even a u-joint does. Although I am really not that familiar with how a rod end is lubricated. I just grease them and replace them when they get sloppy. This is a good topic.
Edit: Here we go-

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/131-1306-steering-you-straight-heim-joints-vs-tie-rod-ends/

So it seems size of the thing does matter, whichever way you go.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Thanks Tora for that artical / link. I think I'll repost one of those pictures tomorrow as it stresses proper installation. Please note I also stressed in red in my first post about proper maintenance. I truly believe a lot of problems are solved before they begin with good maintenance. It's like owning a boat and never washing the hull. Before long it's stained. If you go out and do some hard wheeling, when your done there is some maintenance required.

Looking forward to some input from other forum members.

 

[Peanut Butter]

I wanted to repost this picture from the article Torx found. It shows a properly assembled Heim Joint for a Tie Rod End.



Here are close-up pictures of some of the extra parts needed to make a proper connection:





Also you can get a Heim Joint that can be greased and rubber boots to help keep the dirt out.





Hope this help you if you decide to go this route. Cost of the Heim Joint that you can grease is $35.00 on eBay, if you want to compare that with a tie rod end.

 

[tarry99]

Been this route several times..............Heim joints vs 3/4 or 1 ton factory Tie Rod ends...........DOT Approved? Only one is and that is the factory Tie Rod.

For me it boils down to where the vehicle gets used........On the Race Track or 100% off road.........A high quality Heim joint is more than suitable...........but in most cases and especially steering it should only be used when the joint is put into a "Double Shear" position. The picture posted above whereby the steering joint is in single shear is incorrect in my eyes since the bolt is now on shear but more so the long length of the bolt has a greater leverage effect on the attachment point to weaken that connection by either bending or wallowing out the hole size.

On Street / Off road combined use..........I'm still a firm believer of using a high quality Tie Rod end.....most are 7/8"X 18 TPI with a tapered shank and although most folks gravitate to Moog there is plenty of approved aftermarket ones that offer greater flexibility and lubrication...........Yes , sometimes adapting over-sized 3/4 - 1 ton TRE's to a steering system can become a real challenge because of the shear bulk of the parts...........and one last thing if you were ever in an accident on the road with non approved steering components and there was any serious injuries to you or any other folks...........the legal system will not be your friend .........and that is why most shops and builders will distance themselves from the liability.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Been this route several times..............Heim joints vs 3/4 or 1 ton factory Tie Rod ends...........DOT Approved? Only one is and that is the factory Tie Rod.

I get where you are coming from, you definitely have very good knowledge in this area, but what is your source for the quote above? The above position shown in the picture is a single shear. Thanks for that correction. I don't believe that a good quality grade 8 bolt in a non tapered hole, torqued, and kept tight puts anymore force on the hole and the surrounding metal than a tapered bolt (which is what a tie rod end is). I fact, I believe that the tapering lends to a wallowing effect on the joining end vs a straight through hole. Just because something is different doesn't make it worse or better. Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

Please understand I'm not trying to start an argument here. My intention is to have a healthy discussion based on facts. I value your opinion, but please provide some sort of reference for us to review so that we can make an informed judgment. This was the purpose of my initial post. I have given you a reference that shows that tie rod ends are not the only DOT approved part. In face they aren't DOT approved at all, as there is no regulation other than safety concerns for this system.

 

[Peanut Butter]

So that others know what we are talking about the picture below is considered a double shear mount. It has attaching metal above and below the joint. Something that no OEM Jeep CJ has in it's suspension system.



I also add this link as a commercially sold replacement part by Skyjacker (a reputable company) for a 97 to 06 Jeep. You can also find this part in their pdf catalog. http://www.partsgeek.com/dhlqhlr-je...ek+ShoppingCom&fp=pp&utm_term=Jeep+Heim+Joint

 

[Lumpy Grits]

If a Heim joint isn't as safe and as strong as a TRE- Then how did they get approved for all forms of aircraft use?
PB-May I ask who has the 'boots' for the Heim joints?
THX,
LG

 

[Peanut Butter]

I found the ones I referenced in the picture on line. No specific manufacture. I'm still looking for a good supplier. Let you know what I find.

By the way, here is another supplier of tie rod ends that are Heim Joints: http://www.qa1.net/mustang-bump-steer-kit

 

[Lumpy Grits]

That Mustang kit looks great!
LG

 

[dschwab]

If a Heim joint isn't as safe and as strong as a TRE- Then how did they get approved for all forms of aircraft use?

LG

Coming from a Helo mechanic the use of heim joint rod ends are the standard. However in the 6 different airframes I have worked on they are all installed in a double shear setup and for good reason.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

The double shear was the originally designed method for their installation.
But-- They have worked well on my Jeep's clutch linkage with just a single wall.
LG

 

[Petescj]

The double shear was the originally designed method for their installation.
But-- They have worked well on my Jeep's clutch linkage with just a single wall.
LG

You need to work on your leg muscles. Thanks, you just reminded me of another modification I need to add to the list for the '82. I can't stand the stock set up. One reason I like the Auto in the Laredo .

 

[Lumpy Grits]

You need to work on your leg muscles. Thanks, you just reminded me of another modification I need to add to the list for the '82. I can't stand the stock set up. One reason I like the Auto in the Laredo .

I'm old enough to be your Dad-

LG

 

[tarry99]

I get where you are coming from, you definitely have very good knowledge in this area, but what is your source for the quote above? The above position shown in the picture is a single shear. Thanks for that correction. I don't believe that a good quality grade 8 bolt in a non tapered hole, torqued, and kept tight puts anymore force on the hole and the surrounding metal than a tapered bolt (which is what a tie rod end is). I fact, I believe that the tapering lends to a wallowing effect on the joining end vs a straight through hole. Just because something is different doesn't make it worse or better. Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

Please understand I'm not trying to start an argument here. My intention is to have a healthy discussion based on facts. I value your opinion, but please provide some sort of reference for us to review so that we can make an informed judgment. This was the purpose of my initial post. I have given you a reference that shows that tie rod ends are not the only DOT approved part. In face they aren't DOT approved at all, as there is no regulation other than safety concerns for this system.

PB...............Hey listen, no argument either......if your Rig is strictly off-road and your OK with the single shear steering Heim and a long single bolt that has leverage over the attachment point on the steering arm above and think that there is no added strength or benefit to a tapered bolt that grips far more area than a straight shank.........then go for it!

Regarding Automotive TRE's your right they are not DOT approved per-se! That method of acceptance for any automotive parts is a long process of submitting extensive testing of the parts before Government agencies. These manufactures also have to prove there Worth in as much to defend there parts against claims........and as we all know most of these manufactures are spin-offs of car builders......like Saginaw Gear......who is a GM company that builds steering systems for many lines of auto's beyond the GM name.

And on your link to the Mustang steering parts.......did you check the disclaimer on the last page? Pretty much a "Buy at your own risk"

And LG on your quote : "If a Heim joint isn't as safe and as strong as a TRE- Then how did they get approved for all forms of aircraft use?"

That quote in itself is painting with a pretty wide brush..........Have you ever seen the air frame manuals and spec's for the usage of these parts? .......That spell out specific values , fixtures and attachment points........are they strong?absolutely .....but only when pertaining to the use and fixtures given in the manual.

PB , your a smart guy , I'm not trying to change your mind either way.....I'm just pointing out things that should be considered when using various parts.

I have no issue with Heim joints , I use and depend on them for my Life every time I'm strapped into a Race car.........As a builder and driver I pay close attention to how there used within the given values that are supplied by various engineers and Sanctioning bodies like SFI while also building in a level being redundant.......

At the end of the day I just want to go home in one piece!

 

[Lumpy Grits]

T'99
"And LG on your quote : "If a Heim joint isn't as safe and as strong as a TRE- Then how did they get approved for all forms of aircraft use?"

That quote in itself is painting with a pretty wide brush..........Have you ever seen the air frame manuals and spec's for the usage of these parts? .......That spell out specific values , fixtures and attachment points........are they strong?absolutely .....but only when pertaining to the use and fixtures given in the manual."

Yes I know well of the spec call-outs. I did A/C assembly for Mac-Air and Boeing.
My remark was to show that HJ's are a well proven old design.
Wonder how many folks know the 'Spherical Rod End'(AKA Heim Joint)was devolped by German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.
LG

 

[mtnwhlr]

Is this your car? Very sweet

 

[tarry99]

Is this your car? Very sweet

Yep .........1940 Willys Coupe