Have to decide? Any thoughts

[Kilo19]

Ok so this Christmas weekend I was able to start taking a closer look at my jeep, frame and axles that the PO had with the jeep, extra set not ones that are currently on it.

So here's a brief background.
Currently the jeep has stock axles AMC20 and Dana 30 , don't know the gearing but probably stock as well, narrow track as well.
What was with the jeep, and planned to be put on. Dana 44 front and GM 12bolt 3.73 gearing with spring over perches.

Here's the problem the jeep is currently not wide enough to handle either the "new" axles with out widening the frame. I can't move the perches on the front axle because the perch is too close to the pumpkin, the rear wouldnt be a problem, plenty of room to move them.

So what be cheaper, widen the frame, and use the heavier duty axles or use stock and beef em up?

Pictures on the way.


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[Scooter402]

Easiest thing to do is, like you said, weld in new perches on the rear axle and bolt it in. The front axle is a little more difficult. You don't need to widen your frame, though. Do a search on outboarding your front springs -- this is the easiest way to attack the problem of the perches not lining up. Each spring centerline (lengthwise) is moved approximately outward by 2". Another option is narrowing the long side of the Dana 44 front by 4 inches. This would allow you to use the cast-in passenger side spring perch under your existing front spring without moving it, and put the driver's side spring perch on where it meets up with the spring. Narrowing the axle isn't rocket science, but it's not exactly a novice mechanic's task, either. The third (and most difficult) option is building a linked suspension, and using either coils or coilovers.

Hope all this helps, and if you need any further assistance, just let us know. I've got pictures of all of the above.

 

[Kilo19]

Two questions how does out boarding effect suspension and does it lose any strength verses not out boarding.

Second if the long side of the axle is shortened I'm guessing you just find an axle shaft thatll fit. And is that fairly easy to get.

Of the three I like the sound of out boarding and so does my wallet but cutting the shaft also means I'll have to cut the rear too right?


Thanks for your thoughts


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[Scooter402]

Ah, thank you for catching me on that -- I did forget to mention that cutting the long side down 4" does mean that the axle shaft itself must be cut...or, you could just get a wagoneer 44 long side shaft to replace it with. It is, oddly enough, exactly 4" shorter than a Chevy 44 long side shaft. But having someone cut/respline an axle shaft is about $75 if memory serves me correctly.

There are many many ways to outboard the springs. Yes, probably more of them are "wrong" than "right." But it can be done so that your suspension handling/strength is not compromised. When I outboarded my front springs, I used 1/4" plate and made some shackle hangars for the rear and incorporated my front spring hangars into the front bumper. I did a shackle reversal at the same time I outboarded my springs. This resulted in a front suspension stretch of 2-3 inches.

You don't have to do a shackle reversal when you outboard the springs, if you want to do more than one complicated thing at a time. I just think it makes the swap a little neater and cleaner.

 

[Kilo19]

You have any pics of a shackle reversal.

And about a waganeer there's ones in a junk yard here with a motor but don't know if it has axles still on it


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[Scooter402]

Unfortunately, I'm having issues logging in to Photobucket since I'm on my wife's Mac...stupid Macs... The other issue is that the web forum I had my original build on is shut down, so I've only got a few pics of a half-butted build thread I put up on there. If I get a minute at work, I'll get some better pics from my photobucket.

Here's the only "clear" shot I can find on JF of the front end...sorry, it's not that great. But my front spring hangars are incorporated into the front bumper. Also makes the outboard a little less obvious.



Here's some other pics of the shackle mount, outboarded. These pics were when I was building some new headers.



There, you can see the 1/4" plate I had welded to the frame. I had this plate sandwiching the frame with another piece of 1/4" flat to the bottom, and gusseted up the outside of the frame. The shackle hangar was welded underneath it.

Hopefully you can see the details in the next couple images.



Just for grins, here's the rest of my passenger side header



Like I said, i can go to photobucket tomorrow at work and see if I can find some better pics for you.

 

[Scooter402]

You have any pics of a shackle reversal.

And about a waganeer there's ones in a junk yard here with a motor but don't know if it has axles still on it


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Yeah, all you need from the waggy is the long side axle shaft...if you got the 44 front from it, you'd actually still have to outboard your springs.

 

[Kilo19]

That helps a lot. So the 1/4" would be strong enough, course if you have the right bracing too, that makes a difference. No hurry on the pics but thanks for what you sent. I can see that this is much easier sounding then winding the frame. Being an engineer at heart I was running thru all sorts of ways but didn't think of extending "out boarding" the plates and that it would work

Excuse my ignorence but where would the shackle reversal come in to play.

Btw great way to exit the pipes


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[Scooter402]

1/4" is plenty strong. The frame rails are 1/8" or less thick, just to put things into perspective. Some simple gussets are plenty of extra strength, too.

 

[mylittlecj5]

here is a thread on outboarding springs...

 

[Old Dog]

So what be cheaper, widen the frame, and use the heavier duty axles or use stock and beef em up?

I guess you know thoes full size axles are going to stick way out past the body. This could be a legal issue. (it is here anyway)
I'm thinking this is going to be a trail only jeep? If so what kind of wheeling are you going to do?
IMO buy the time you get the steering squared away with going soa (unless the chevy axle already has high steer knuckles) it would be cheaper to build your stock axles. They can be built to handle 33's fairly easy.

 

[Kilo19]

1. these axles came off a blazer, so i don't know if (or what they look like) they have high steering knuckles.
2. type of wheeling, not really any mud, mostly dry dirt and rocks, some asphalt.

now i know what your thinking, why go that heavy duty and not put it thru the ringer, well the whole thing was given to me, and i kinda don't want to waste it, i'd like to use them if i can. hope that helps. i appreciate you guys looking out for more things to add to my todo list.

thx

 

[tarry99]

1. these axles came off a blazer, so i don't know if (or what they look like) they have high steering knuckles.
2. type of wheeling, not really any mud, mostly dry dirt and rocks, some asphalt.

now i know what your thinking, why go that heavy duty and not put it thru the ringer, well the whole thing was given to me, and i kinda don't want to waste it, i'd like to use them if i can. hope that helps. i appreciate you guys looking out for more things to add to my todo list.

thx

Dog makes a good point...........w/33"inch tires you can get by very easy by upgrading what you have.........or you could also think about doing wide track CJ axles.........you'll pick up an additional 3" in width and the spring mounts are in the same location as you already have............ parts are easy to find and fairly cheap!

 

[Old Dog]

IMHO If you are staying with 33's as you prifile says I would keep the 30 & the 20. The 30 should be good as is, the 20 would need one piece axles, the tubes welded to the pumpkin, and a truss. The only down side is you might have 2:73 gears in that 83. Regearing is going to add a lot to the build cost.
The full size axles on soa is going to be alot of lift (app. 5 1/2" with stock springs) for 33's and might meen buying new springs (if you have a 4" lift now) if the blazer is before 77 you might have high steer knuckles BUT you would still need to get the pass. side milled & drilled and than get arms for them and a new steering linkage system.
So if you are going to have to regear the stock axles the build price might be about the same. It's going to be pricy either way.
Heres a pic. of a yj on full size axles with a soa and 38's
also some driver side high steer knuckles so you know what they look like.

 

[Kilo19]

thanks for the pics/info, i looked up the max width in the state of texas and got 102 inches.

"621.201. MAXIMUM WIDTH. (a) The total width of a
vehicle operated on a public highway other than a vehicle to which
Subsection (b) applies, including a load on the vehicle but
excluding any safety device determined by the United States
Department of Transportation or the Texas Department of Public
Safety to be necessary for the safe and efficient operation of motor
vehicles of that type, may not be greater than 102 inches.
(b) The total width of a passenger vehicle and its load may
not be greater than eight feet. This subsection does not apply to a
motor bus or trolley bus operated exclusively in the territory of a
municipality, in suburbs contiguous to the municipality, or in the
county in which the municipality is located.
(c) A passenger vehicle may not carry a load extending more
than three inches beyond the left side line of its fenders or more
than six inches beyond the right side line of its fenders."

does this make any sense. the only part i got out of it was the 102. now the full size axles are like sixty something right? and if i get rims with 0 offset, thats gonna help....right?

am i thinking correct.

p.s. i was looking at only stock springs any way, i was think something that will give, since it's gonna be a tall lift, thought was to use the soa as my lift instead of having another lift added.

 

[Old Dog]

IIRC full size is something like 68 or 69". Where they get you in the states around here (ohio) is that the tires cann't stick out past the fender flairs. Not only do they not make flairs that big but they would look pretty stupid if they did.

The big cost with soa is getting the steering set up correctly.

You would want a wheel with alot of backspace to pull the tire in, not sure where you would find that other than a custom wheel, and than it might get in the way of the break lines or get the tire to close to the springs
.
Best bet would be as scooter said and narrow them 4" and than outboard the springs.
Or look for some used gears and diff's for the 30-20 if they do have 2:73's.
I'd pull the covers a check you might lucky.

 

[Kilo19]

IMHO If you are staying with 33's as you prifile says I would keep the 30 & the 20. The 30 should be good as is, the 20 would need one piece axles, the tubes welded to the pumpkin, and a truss. The only down side is you might have 2:73 gears in that 83. Regearing is going to add a lot to the build cost.
The full size axles on soa is going to be alot of lift (app. 5 1/2" with stock springs) for 33's and might meen buying new springs (if you have a 4" lift now) if the blazer is before 77 you might have high steer knuckles BUT you would still need to get the pass. side milled & drilled and than get arms for them and a new steering linkage system.
So if you are going to have to regear the stock axles the build price might be about the same. It's going to be pricy either way.
Heres a pic. of a yj on full size axles with a soa and 38's
also some driver side high steer knuckles so you know what they look like.

old dog, i wanted to let you know that on my Dana 44 front axle, it came with a SOA already, and it lookes exactly like your third picture, so i think i may be ok as far as that goes.

thanks for the pictures