Jeep not happy - electrical now

[BillyB]

So my junk hasn't run since Christmas time. Over the prior few months - was running rough - especially going uphill.

Around Christmas - it would crank, but never turn over. Started with the spark side - decided to replace distributor cap, rotor, and wires. One wire was completely shot, so in theory - this is good. Old wires - ~3.5 kOhms. New wires ~0.5 kOhms.

After that change - still would crank, but not turn over. Aha - fuel pump likely cause as some starter fluid would get to want to run (plus the running rough uphills for a while, etc.). Swapped out the fuel pump.

Tried to crank it once, twice, on the third shot - electrical system completely died. I'm thinking I smoked a fuse somewhere. Getting ready to start pulling them to check. BTW - battery still showing 12.5V (and had it tested as part of this exercise).

Any ideas on where to look next? Are my new wires to low on the resistance? 3.5kOhms to 0.5kOhms seems like a big jump.

Thanks! Todd

 

[MN CJ7]

So my junk hasn't run since Christmas time. Over the prior few months - was running rough - especially going uphill.

Around Christmas - it would crank, but never turn over. Started with the spark side - decided to replace distributor cap, rotor, and wires. One wire was completely shot, so in theory - this is good. Old wires - ~3.5 kOhms. New wires ~0.5 kOhms.

After that change - still would crank, but not turn over. Aha - fuel pump likely cause as some starter fluid would get to want to run (plus the running rough uphills for a while, etc.). Swapped out the fuel pump.

Tried to crank it once, twice, on the third shot - electrical system completely died. I'm thinking I smoked a fuse somewhere. Getting ready to start pulling them to check. BTW - battery still showing 12.5V (and had it tested as part of this exercise).

Any ideas on where to look next? Are my new wires to low on the resistance? 3.5kOhms to 0.5kOhms seems like a big jump.

Thanks! Todd

Todd,

Sorry to hear.... are you a stock set up yet. DuraSpark, computer, feedback Carter Carb, air pump...... you know all the stuff so. Let us know what you have..... some of the equipment can cause issues.

CJs and the ignition have very very weak grounds.... and if the ground for the ignition module and the head(s) is weak you very well could have a no start, no spark, runs poor situation. NEED gas, spark,compression.

I would also look at your plugs after cranking and see if they are wet with gas. If wet that could have samed the time and exp of the fuel pump.

I have some ideas to fix you up... but want to hear back
The computer CJs can have some pretty good issues stock and when the Computer JUNK is removed.... there are other limitations that need to be taken care of or it will not run well.

Fred


PS.
I will post a trouble shooting process for the CJ inition below from JH.

 

[MN CJ7]

JeepHammer Trouble Shooting Ignition 12/09
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/here-we-go-again-not-getting-spark-918041/


Could bee anything from a blown fuse to a plugged up fuel filter...

Get yourself a test light from the parts store, the cost about $6.
Looks like an ice pick with a wire coming out of the handle.
Get the kind with a BULB, not LEDs.

Connect that wire to the negative battery terminal,
And probe (Touch) the positive battery terminal.
That will tell you what a 'Bright' light is supposed to look like.

Take the connector off of the ignition coil.
Probe the 'Red' wire terminal in the connector while someone turns the key first to 'RUN', then to 'Start'...

You should get a 'Dim' Light when the key is in the 'RUN' position,
And a 'Bright' light when the key is cranking the engine.

If you DO NOT get the lighting of the test light as described above,
Then you have an 'Issue' with fuses, ignition switch or wiring out to the ignition system.
-----------------------------

Next you need to test the ignition side of things.

Connect the wire on the test light to the battery positive terminal.
Touch the battery negative terminal to see if the test light has good connection.

Now I want you to probe the coil connector 'Green' wire terminal while someone cranks the engine.

The light should flash as the engine cranks.

If you DO NOT get a flash,
Then the 'Issue' is in the ignition side of the system.
------------------------------------

Put the coil connector back on the coil,
Pull the coil wire off of the distributor, and insert a spark plug into the coil wire open end.

Make sure you use a piece of wire, wrap it around the spark plug threads,
Then connect the other end to the battery negative terminal.
This makes a 'Test Plug'.

Have someone turn the ignition 'On' & 'Off' a few times.
You should see one single spark from the spark plug when the ignition gets turned 'Off'.

This tests the 'Green' wire between ignition coil and the module,
And the module 'Ground' (Black) wire between distributor and module.

If you don't get any spark, then most likely the coil connector at the 'Green' wire isn't making contact, the wire is broken, or the system 'Ground' wire from the distributor to the module isn't doing it's job.
---------------------------------

If the ignition module has been changed, take it out and have it tested at the discount stores.
You simply wouldn't believe how many of the 'Import' modules that sell for $30 are bad right out of the box or quit working shortly after install.

I recommend a Borg Warner replacment module, but even those fail sometimes.
----------------------------------

If you have done the above tests,
Then you need to check a couple more things...

Pull the two wire plug apart at the module.
Use your test light connected to negative or 'Ground', and probe the 'Red' wire side of the harness.
You will probably have to insert a piece of wire in the connector to get a reading.

That terminal should be a 'Bright' light when the key switch is in the 'Run' position.

Repeat that test on the 'Blue' wire side of the harness connector. (module wire will be 'White', the harness wire will be 'Blue')

The 'Blue' wire terminal should be a 'Bright' light when the engine is cranking.

If you pass these tests,
Then you know the module is getting power in both 'Start' and 'Run' circuits.
(Yes, the module has two different circuits, depending on if you are trying to start the engine or 'Run' the engine)
--------------------------------------------

Next comes the trigger in the distributor, and the only way to test it is with an 'OHM METER'.

There are two parillel terminals in the distributor side of the distributor connector.
You should show 400 to 800 Ohms, with around 625 being 'Normal'.

Also test between each of those connector tabs and the distributor body.
You shouldn't get any reading (infinite Resistance, no connection what so ever).
This will tell you if the trigger is shorted to ground internally or one of the wires is rubbed through inside the distributor.

If you don't find anything wrong there,
It's time to start checking wiring between coil distributor and module.

You already know the 'Green' wire from the coil to the module is working,
You already know the 'Black' wire from the distributor to the module is working if the coil connector passed it's tests...

This only leaves the 'Orange' & 'Violet' wires between distributor to module,
And the ignition coil as potential 'Problems'.

Use the Ohm meter on the ignition module harness connector, Orange wire
And the distributor harness connector 'Orange' wire.
You shouldn't show any resistance on the Ohm meter.

Repeat with the module harness connector 'Violet' wire and the distributor harness connector 'Violet' wire.
this shouldn't show any resistance either.

Check both for connection to 'Ground' to make sure they haven't rubbed through somewhere...
---------------------------------

If everything checks out, including taking the module to the parts store and having it tested, then you have a bad ignition coil.
Some stores can 'Test' coils, but the guys working there usually do it incorrectly....

If your ignition coil turns out to be 'Bad', the make sure you add a DEDICATED GROUND WIRE to the engine head.
About the only way to cook an ignition coil is insufficient electrical 'Ground' for the high voltage discharge (Spark) to get to ground...

---------------------------------------

Some Images that might help you with this...

Layout of the basic Motorcraft/DuraSpark ignition system.

sorry would not load from pic.
use the link above and you can see a great pic of you electrical & igntion

----------------------------------------

 

[BillyB]

Right on! Thanks for the information!

Now - will have to go get a test light - unless my multimeter will be able to accomplish the same...

 

[MN CJ7]

Right on! Thanks for the information!

Now - will have to go get a test light - unless my multimeter will be able to accomplish the same...

Todd,

The multi meter will work if you know when to use volts, continuity and have the right range. The test lights are cheap like $6.

I use a multimeter but my understaning is pretty good. I do not have a test light but will get one when I spot one dirt cheap and coin not so tight.

Let us know what you find write your finding in a sprial bound note book. It will help you trouble shoot. Help me help too.

Good luck again, let us know what you find.

Fred




Also, try to give us this info, maybe post a few pics when you do.

Todd,

Sorry to hear.... are you a stock set up yet. DuraSpark, computer, feedback Carter Carb, air pump...... you know all the stuff so. Let us know what you have..... some of the equipment can cause issues.

 

[BillyB]

Thanks for the tips! Yes - its a stock setup in the sense that anything that needed replacing was done OEM style. As far as I know.

Now I did notice that someone somewhere (I'm the 3rd owner) put a fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump. I don't think thats standard, but I did replace that as part of my troubleshooting (got the one between the pump and the carb last summer). Perhaps I should just remove it and take some hose straight to the pump.

I didn't get far yesterday, but noticed that some of my battery connections are loose on the negative side. FWIW - I'm going to swap all the cables coming off the battery.

As a side note - the chap at the parts store was thinking I may have fried a fusable link, or the main fuse. I didn't see a 'main' fuse in the fusebox under the driver's dash. Looked like mainly accessories, lights, etc.

Will post up some pics when I can!

 

[BillyB]

OKAY - (man - wish I had more time to spin on this).

I replaced the battery cables all around. I now have electrical again. BTW - the positive cable has a pigtail hanging off of it. The documentation says this is a fusable link. Mine ties to a wire heading into the dashboard.

The cable I took off seemed to have an okay connection on it, but anyway - new cables = electrical working.

Cranked it over - had it running.

Except - there was a bit of gas leaking out of the output of the fuel pump.

Thus - I'm getting ready to replace the steel fuel line from the pump to the main fuel filter.

Is there supposed to be a gasket between the fuel filter and the steel fuel line? I didn't see one on the old setup.

Thanks again!

Todd

 

[phyrph0enix]

Is there supposed to be a gasket between the fuel filter and the steel fuel line? I didn't see one on the old setup.

To be perfectly honest, I have never messed with any Jeep fuel filter. However, fuel filters inline with metal fittings usually do NOT have gaskets. They usually rely on double-flared (or bubble-flared if you're German) line and fittings. If this is not the case... sorry... I haven't gotten to this point on my Jeep yet.

Running rough might be something associated with timing. If I'm not mistaken, these Jeeps have timing chains... I think. They do stretch. So, after 25 odd years, you might just be off a couple of degrees - or someone may have turned your distributor. If it is a timing issue, the car's not gonna start unless you do a baseline reset, then adjust it when you get it running.

 

[BillyB]

OKAY - (man - wish I had more time to spin on this).



Thus - I'm getting ready to replace the steel fuel line from the pump to the main fuel filter.

Is there supposed to be a gasket between the fuel filter and the steel fuel line? I didn't see one on the old setup.

Thanks again!

Todd

NOT fuel FILTER...Sorry - Fuel PUMP and the steel fuel line (which leads to the fuel filter).

So is there a gasket between the fuel PUMP and the steel fuel line...

My bad!

 

[MN CJ7]

NOT fuel FILTER...Sorry - Fuel PUMP and the steel fuel line (which leads to the fuel filter).

So is there a gasket between the fuel PUMP and the steel fuel line...

My bad!

Hard fuel lines to/from the fuel pump are flair type. There should be a nut on the opposite side of flair on hard line. They us a flair nut wrench.... just like a box wrench with a 1/4" or so opening so it can slip over the hard line, moved down to the flair nut, and snugged down to the fuel pump. All surfaces need to be clean if you what this to seal.

There is no gasket between the flair surfaces. A flair wrench is needed to attain the torque to get these to seal on hard fuel line. The nut will collasp or bend if the right flair wrench is not used..

ON Natural GAs is copper so can use a box wrench and pipe dope and will help seal the fair faces / surfaces...... I am almost postitive the pipe dope will NOT work on gas...... just info.

There may be a sealant for gas line.... but I am not aware of it.

Again.... it will need a flair wrench too .

The Engine moves with torque and use..... Cannot hard line from the frame of vehicle to the mech fuel pump mtd on the engine block.... So its needs rubber fuel line from the hard line on frame to the input of fuel pump.... The rubber fuel line will fit over both metal ends and is clamped down.

I have a SECOND FUEL FILTER in the midldle of this soft fuel line from frame to fuel pump on block. Mech friend said I do not know cond of gas tank and it will protect my new fuel pump.... Has not affected my operation for the past 3 yrs. It is a clear fuel filter so I can see if getting rust, silt ,debree , etc.

After you fuel line service, and if any one does the extra fuel filter.... Put 1/8 cup of fuel down throat carb so it can catch some of that fuel..... will prime the fuel pump and line pretty quick that way.... and not depend on the starter slow crank to deliver fuel. I also did this for 1st start up after 5 mo or so of MN Winter Storage.

The hard line can be FLAIRED with a clamp on flair tool..... it clamps on the outside of fuel, brake, natural gas lines, at the end of hard line. It holds snug on the OD, and has a cone that is forced on the open end of the hard line and maket is cone shaped.

You will need a flair wrench set... will not be able to apply higher forces with a cresent, open end.... WILL NEED A FLAIR WRENCH SET.


DID A SEARCH......
A Picture (s) is worth a lot of words look here
Making Custom Fluid Lines



So......Summary
Hard line on the frame of Jeep
Pc of soft fuel line from hardline on frame to input of fuel pump
hard line from fuel pump across the top of engine.
In front of carb.... TWO pcs of soft line with a fuel filter in middle

Optional.....
2nd fuel filter could be used in front of fuel pump if you have a junk filled gas tank. Will protect fuel pump and there are check valves internal to the fuel pump that it needs to pump fuel.... mess up check valves it will not work well to pump and fuel will drain back down.



I would guess you have the lines are there. Use new fuel line if leaking and will need some small clamps too. The exit on fuel pump needs to snuged up pretty well and almost/am afraid to say how much torque was needed it quite a bit....
Use a Flair Wrench on this only.

 

[MN CJ7]

Spend some time and read the JeepHammer and the TEAMRUSH tune up parts upgrade... Uses a larger BRass Terminal cap/rotar.

AUX ground are also part of this.... Starter, Block, Firewall, input spark modual, firewall, dash, front grill, Frame, alternator, head (s) all need grounds or there are electrical gremlins.

You biggest ground need is Starter.... Hammer said that should be your primary ground.... He has a very good write up on this.


WE ALL NEED TO DO THIS.... great results.
TeamRush
Auxgrounds


he has a web site ..... JunkYardGenius



Let us know how you move along,

Fred




PS
Signage says you have a 85, there are items to correct with computer and noncomputer use. After you would do the above.

 

[BillyB]

There is no gasket between the flair surfaces. A flair wrench is needed to attain the torque to get these to seal on hard fuel line. The nut will collasp or bend if the right flair wrench is not used..

The Engine moves with torque and use..... Cannot hard line from the frame of vehicle to the mech fuel pump mtd on the engine block.... So its needs rubber fuel line from the hard line on frame to the input of fuel pump.... The rubber fuel line will fit over both metal ends and is clamped down.

I have a SECOND FUEL FILTER in the midldle of this soft fuel line from frame to fuel pump on block. Mech friend said I do not know cond of gas tank and it will protect my new fuel pump.... Has not affected my operation for the past 3 yrs. It is a clear fuel filter so I can see if getting rust, silt ,debree , etc.

After you fuel line service, and if any one does the extra fuel filter.... Put 1/8 cup of fuel down throat carb so it can catch some of that fuel..... will prime the fuel pump and line pretty quick that way.... and not depend on the starter slow crank to deliver fuel. I also did this for 1st start up after 5 mo or so of MN Winter Storage.


You will need a flair wrench set... will not be able to apply higher forces with a cresent, open end.... WILL NEED A FLAIR WRENCH SET.

So......Summary
Hard line on the frame of Jeep
Pc of soft fuel line from hardline on frame to input of fuel pump
hard line from fuel pump across the top of engine.
In front of carb.... TWO pcs of soft line with a fuel filter in middle

Optional.....
2nd fuel filter could be used in front of fuel pump if you have a junk filled gas tank. Will protect fuel pump and there are check valves internal to the fuel pump that it needs to pump fuel.... mess up check valves it will not work well to pump and fuel will drain back down.



I would guess you have the lines are there. Use new fuel line if leaking and will need some small clamps too. The exit on fuel pump needs to snuged up pretty well and almost/am afraid to say how much torque was needed it quite a bit....
Use a Flair Wrench on this only.

Makes TOTAL sense.

And I DO have that 2nd filter between the frame line and the fuel pump input.

I had tried to use the old steel line on the fuel pump output. With the flair connection - I'm not surprised at ALL that it wasn't snug. I'll look into getting a flair wrench for this. The new steel line to go over then engine has been sitting in my 'office' for a week and half now - hope to get to it over the weekend.

Thanks to all for the tips!

Todd

 

[MN CJ7]

Your welcome...

Let us know how it goes...

 

[BillyB]

Got the new fuel line plumbed on Saturday. That link on working with the tubing was a big help. Got er bent, flare wrenched on - and she's a runnin.

Cap/wires makes a big difference - certainly going from 5 to all 6 cylinders is a bonus.

Thanks to all for the help!

Todd

Trying to link a photo - but doesn't seem to work. 1 in my gallery...