question about steering ratios

[mazinkaiser]

Hi guys new to the forum i Just Bought a 1973 CJ5 which i plan to use as a weekend cruise mobile for me and the family since i already have a JK for Offroading and daily driving. i plan to do some power steering and brake booster on the car with some 32s other than that it will remain stock. i need some advice on some of this upgrades i have the following questions.

1. i want the car to steer as close as possible to a modern car or my Jk Flaming River Suggested a 12:1 steering box for this is there any adverse effects to this? or if you guys could provide some feedback on whats the best route to have more responsive steering as currently the cj feels like a very heavy tank.

2. i know Jeeps in General have the risk of rollover is there any things i can do to make the car a lot less likely to rollover? i was thinking wider tires and 4.5 offset should improve the stability would heavier steel wheels make it less top heavy?

thanks in advance for all the help looking forward to getting it ready!

 

[Lumpy Grits]

:ww:

See if you can add a PS pump and 'box' from a late model CJ.

CJ's are NOT 'cars'. Drive smart and learn the way of the CJ.
I for one, do not recommend wheel spacers. Too much load stress on the spindle and axle bearings.
FWIW: The last 'Jeep' I pull'd back over onto it's wheels, was a JK
LG

 

[mazinkaiser]

:ww:

See if you can add a PS pump and 'box' from a late model CJ.

CJ's are NOT 'cars'. Drive smart and learn the way of the CJ.
I for one, do not recommend wheel spacers. Too much load stress on the spindle and axle bearings.
FWIW: The last 'Jeep' I pull'd back over onto it's wheels, was a JK
LG

Hey Thanks for the Reply I Drive very careful is the other drivers im very wary about and is the reason why i want to improve the response of the CJ i was not thinking spacers for the same reason you gave but new wheels with the backspacking of 4.5 should not cause too much stress i think. i managed to track the down the very rare passenger side power steering bracket to do my conversion to power steering will the late CJ Steering box bold on to my 73 and does that one have a quicker ratio?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

FACT-No CJ will every drive/handle like a car. They were never meant to.:down:
I've been driving my CJ on the street/freeway/trail for over 32 years. It's been on it's side 1 time 'off-road', and it was MY fault.
Just drive smart-You'll be fine.
Sorry-I don't know it it's a 'bolt-on' or not.
LG

 

[gert]

the CJ power steering box is a non variable ratio i think 16 to 1 the wagoneers are a variable ratio which improves the feel on highway steering. the power steering box is a Saginaw made by GM so you can find them on several car brands. there are a few differences in them like SAE hose fittings and metric. If you go to a re-builder shop you should be able to get one for a fairly reasonable price . People on the internet seem to like the Hummer H1 steering box as the go to variable replacement box. I think you will really enjoy having power steering on your CJ. As far as the rollover bit buy and install the biggest sway bars front and rear you can with good bushings, and make sure your suspension and steering bushings and tie rods shocks bearings and such are in good working order. With less back spacing on your wheels you will move your tires outboard so that might make it feel like it has wide track axles. Let us know if you need any more help.

 

[Posi]

To expand on what gert posted.

The box you have now is 24:1 constant ratio. All manual CJ boxes are the same.
All CJ PS box from the 70s or 80s is 17.5:1 constant ratio.
FSJ is 13/16:1 variable ratio

Most important is that all steering components be in good working order.

 

[mazinkaiser]

the CJ power steering box is a non variable ratio i think 16 to 1 the wagoneers are a variable ratio which improves the feel on highway steering. the power steering box is a Saginaw made by GM so you can find them on several car brands. there are a few differences in them like SAE hose fittings and metric. If you go to a re-builder shop you should be able to get one for a fairly reasonable price . People on the internet seem to like the Hummer H1 steering box as the go to variable replacement box. I think you will really enjoy having power steering on your CJ. As far as the rollover bit buy and install the biggest sway bars front and rear you can with good bushings, and make sure your suspension and steering bushings and tie rods shocks bearings and such are in good working order. With less back spacing on your wheels you will move your tires outboard so that might make it feel like it has wide track axles. Let us know if you need any more help.

Thanks Gert i too had read about the wagoneers power steering box and the variable ratio. i have no clue what that means hahaha. it seems like just power steering itself would improve the steering ratio on the Cj. does the wagoner steering box just bolt on into my cj or what else would i need also what does the variable ratio do?
thanks for all the help guys I'm slowly getting to my answer

 

[Lumpy Grits]

As far as the rollover bit buy and install the biggest sway bars front and rear you can with good bushings, and make sure your suspension and steering bushings and tie rods shocks bearings and such are in good working order. With less back spacing on your wheels you will move your tires outboard so that might make it feel like it has wide track axles. Let us know if you need any more help.

I have no sway bar on mine. Took off the OEM bar, the day I drove it home in March of 1985.
FWIW: Sway bars 'stiffen' up the ride a good bit too.


LG

 

[gert]

I have no sway bar on mine. Took off the OEM bar, the day I drove it home in March of 1985.
FWIW: Sway bars 'stiffen' up the ride a good bit too.


LG

Well I have never thought about it like that but I can picture in my head it offering resistance to suspension travel. I am so used to thinking about the reduction in body roll benefits


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[gert]

Thanks Gert i too had read about the wagoneers power steering box and the variable ratio. i have no clue what that means hahaha. it seems like just power steering itself would improve the steering ratio on the Cj. does the wagoner steering box just bolt on into my cj or what else would i need also what does the variable ratio do?

thanks for all the help guys I'm slowly getting to my answer

Yes just having power steering will be awesome, The wagoner box is supposed to bolt right in, the variable ratio is built into the box. It is like 14 to 1 til you get close to the center of travel then it slows down to 16 to 1 and then as you keep turning it will go back to 14 to 1 so that while you are driving down the interstate you don't have really twitchy steering


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[mazinkaiser]

Yes just having power steering will be awesome, The wagoner box is supposed to bolt right in, the variable ratio is built into the box. It is like 14 to 1 til you get close to the center of travel then it slows down to 16 to 1 and then as you keep turning it will go back to 14 to 1 so that while you are driving down the interstate you don't have really twitchy steering


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awesome I'm thinking thats the way i want to go ok heres what i have so far

1.power steering pump, brackets and pulley
2. extra crank pulley the bolts to the front of balancer to drive the belt


what i need

1.hoses and lines for power steering
2.wagooner steering box
3. pitman arm
4.belt for power steering
5.a new shaft for power steering

ok thats what i think i need correct am i missing anything? also when i go to napa auto parts what model year of wagoneer power steering box should i ask for?
and what adapters or what kind of new shaft would i have to get to go to the new box currently the jeep has the stock manual steering column and shaft

thanks for all the help guys i can't wait to get the upgrade done i will post pics as i go along

 

[mazinkaiser]

Also i Forgot to ask what kind of pitman arm should i get for this power steering setup should it be the one for the wagoneer? or the one for the power steering on a CJ5 ?

 

[tarry99]

Variable ratio as others have mentioned is what you want in a short wheelbase vehicle such as you have...........The normal ratio is 16:1 in the middle (straight ahead ) and then as you turn either left or right it slowly increases the turning ratio to 13:1 out at the edges......If you have manual steering now more than likely the box has a 3 bolt mount....most of the Heavy Duty series 800 Saginaw gear boxes (which AMC used on the Jeeps up through the 80's) will be a 4-bolt mount and in some cases the 4-bolt gear box may fit on the 3 bolt mount ........the input shaft coming from the column will also be a different size........as well as the sector shaft and Pitman arm will also need a larger diameter spline...........the parts are out there and just need to be mixed and matched for your application.......until you have the steering gear and it's mounted I would wait on buying a Pittman arm...PSC in Texas does a good job on aftermarket gear boxes and Parts Mike in NorCal has a good inventory of Pitman arms.........on the conversion of steering input shafts Borgeson is pretty good...............Find yourself a factory Jeep of your age or later that has factory Power steering and climb under it and photograph the parts...........including the Power steering pump parts on the motor....helps to see all the changes...

 

[Torxhead]

Interesting Tarry, is there an exterior identifier for that variable ratio box? I would recommend aftermarket steering box supports and heavy duty tie rods for the CJ. Along with inspecting the full frame for cracks as they do flex.

 

[mazinkaiser]

Variable ratio as others have mentioned is what you want in a short wheelbase vehicle such as you have...........The normal ratio is 16:1 in the middle (straight ahead ) and then as you turn either left or right it slowly increases the turning ratio to 13:1 out at the edges......If you have manual steering now more than likely the box has a 3 bolt mount....most of the Heavy Duty series 800 Saginaw gear boxes (which AMC used on the Jeeps up through the 80's) will be a 4-bolt mount and in some cases the 4-bolt gear box may fit on the 3 bolt mount ........the input shaft coming from the column will also be a different size........as well as the sector shaft and Pitman arm will also need a larger diameter spline...........the parts are out there and just need to be mixed and matched for your application.......until you have the steering gear and it's mounted I would wait on buying a Pittman arm...PSC in Texas does a good job on aftermarket gear boxes and Parts Mike in NorCal has a good inventory of Pitman arms.........on the conversion of steering input shafts Borgeson is pretty good...............Find yourself a factory Jeep of your age or later that has factory Power steering and climb under it and photograph the parts...........including the Power steering pump parts on the motor....helps to see all the changes...

thanks for all the info ill be ordering the steering box from napa when they ask me what vehicle is it for should i say 73 wagoneer? and how would i determine what kind of pittman arm to use?
i know currently the jeep has the three bolt mount manual steering box bracket do i have to change that? i noticed lots of the steering boxes have four hole mounts is there anyone that sells a four hole mount bracket that would bolt on where my current one is?

thanks for all the help guys i really appreciate it

 

[tarry99]

Interesting Tarry, is there an exterior identifier for that variable ratio box? I would recommend aftermarket steering box supports and heavy duty tie rods for the CJ. Along with inspecting the full frame for cracks as they do flex.

Torx,

No not really..........unless you knew the exact donor and the option.....there are several OEM boxes that cross over but some ratios are too quick for a short wheelbase vehicle............Tom Lee down your way in Sun Valley used to do all mine..........and can convert any Saginaw 800 steering gear and I'm sure other models over to Variable ratio............he closed his business a few years back because of health , but I just recently heard he is now consulting for another steering gear rebuilder.........Lee Power Steering | Santa Clarita, CA in Valencia , Ca. 818-768-0371.................he is smarter than anyone else in the business with steering...

 

[tarry99]

thanks for all the info ill be ordering the steering box from napa when they ask me what vehicle is it for should i say 73 wagoneer? and how would i determine what kind of pittman arm to use?
i know currently the jeep has the three bolt mount manual steering box bracket do i have to change that? i noticed lots of the steering boxes have four hole mounts is there anyone that sells a four hole mount bracket that would bolt on where my current one is?

thanks for all the help guys i really appreciate it

See the response above to Torx...........I would talk with one of the rebuilders first so you get the right steering gear for the job..............Pitman Arm? Two things.........first the pitman arm should be a near 1:1 ratio as compared to your steering arm on your spindle.......length wise......Since I have no Idea what you have? I can't help you.... Second, the steering gear box location with Pitman arm & drag link attached has to be in the correct location forward of the tie rod and at a height that is near level or slightly above the tie rod to lessen bump steer.........so picking aftermarket parts to fit your install from here is near impossible.....4 bolt mounts are just that sometimes a 4-bolt gearbox will bolt up to a 3-bolt mount.......just have to try and then see if all the geometry is correct...if not you have to move it.........