Shackle debate at work

[TexasBlues]

Hey all!

a friend of mine are debating the use of shackles with a lift...

i say they can be used, but discretion should be the order of the day... not too much lift from the shackle AND the spring.. and that when under full load (curb weight) the shackles lower end (Closer to the deck) should be at 90* or close to pointing AWAY from the spring arch... lower end would be toward bumper...

like this / (T/C)

he says i have it backwards... and that the lowers should point lower ends IN toward the T/C

like this \ (T/C)


this is under ordinary load, at curb weight... who is correct?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Longer shackles change your camber settings.
You want the shackle angle to be a bit towards the bumper at curb weight.
Look at any factory set-up to confirm this.
LG

 

[Dolamite]

Longer shackles change your camber settings.
You want the shackle angle to be a bit towards the bumper at curb weight.
Look at any factory set-up to confirm this.
LG

If the shackles are angled toward the T/C at curb weight instead of the bumper, what is the best way to remedy the situation?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

If the shackles are angled toward the T/C at curb weight instead of the bumper, what is the best way to remedy the situation?

Longer springs.
LG

 

[Dolamite]

Longer springs.
LG

That was the first thing I thought of as well. Would removing a leaf to get less arch be a possible solution?

 

[tarry99]

Hey all!

a friend of mine are debating the use of shackles with a lift...

i say they can be used, but discretion should be the order of the day... not too much lift from the shackle AND the spring.. and that when under full load (curb weight) the shackles lower end (Closer to the deck) should be at 90* or close to pointing AWAY from the spring arch... lower end would be toward bumper...

like this / (T/C)

he says i have it backwards... and that the lowers should point lower ends IN toward the T/C

like this \ (T/C)


this is under ordinary load, at curb weight... who is correct?

Like this........20 degrees or better up to 45 degrees........anywhere near negative or 90 degrees will kill the ride or invert the springs. And it's never a good Idea to use shackles to increase lift.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

That was the first thing I thought of as well. Would removing a leaf to get less arch be a possible solution?

Don't see how-
You'll lose some of your 'lift'.
With the weight in the front-I would just R&R those springs.
LG

 

[tarry99]

That was the first thing I thought of as well. Would removing a leaf to get less arch be a possible solution?

Removing a leaf or two to drop the ride height and correct shackle angle is just a Band-aid for the real problem which is too long of a spring pack
( caused by lifted springs) in the same dimensional area that the stock springs once occupied hence the reason your shackles are now at the wrong angle.....Also by taking leafs out the remaining pack the remaining ones would now have to carry all the weight which will lead to any early failure.

The correct fix is to remove the fixed spring hanger and re-position the hanger to correct the shackle angle..........this of course should be done with all the weight in at ride height.............one other thing about lifted springs due to there longer mechanical length is that they may require a longer shackle to get to full droop....

 

[Lumpy Grits]

"The correct fix is to remove the fixed spring hanger"

The CORRECT fix, is to use the correct length springs to start with.
Move'n the 'hanger' changes the whole front end around.
LG

 

[Torxhead]

Come to think of it, I have seen spring shackles pop all the way against the frame where too short of a spring was used.

 

[PaRenegade]

And it's never a good Idea to use shackles to increase lift.

I disagree, that's a myth. Shackles get a bad rap for all the wrong reasons. Longer shackles aren't bad in and among themselves. It's cheap shackles and poor installation that gives them a bad name. Longer shackles, within reason, are a simple way to gain additional flex, provided they are done right. I challenge anyone to show proof that a 3" shackle is the ideal perfect length. Among the list of vehicles that use shackles you'll find a variance in lengths. Even the older Jeeps had shorter C shaped shackles. A similar vehicle, the Wrangler has 4" shackles.
It depends on their construction, the longer the more stout they need to be as well as a solid block welded between the sides. And on a stock Jeep it's the mounts that fail not the shackles. Adding length also adds leverage forces so the mounts should be beefed up as well.
I had 5 1/4" ConFerr shackles on mine for 26 years without issue. It was the mounts that failed (twisted). I currently have 5" ones on it. Warrior brand with welded construction and 3/8" sides. I foresee no problems since I have M.O.R.E. mounts as well. Theres also a reason manfacturers limit shackle lifts to 2". There is a safe limit, even though high lifted show rigs push that limit.

 

[Woolyworm]

They should be about like this - if you just put on a big lift it can take some time to settle the springs out which will move the shackles away from the vehicle. If they point in on the bottom the springs will want to fold them up instead of out when the compress .

Here at full flex - may even be starting to over flex the spring and pull the shackle back in.

Wooly

 

[Lumpy Grits]

I disagree, that's a myth. Shackles get a bad rap for all the wrong reasons. Longer shackles aren't bad in and among themselves. It's cheap shackles and poor installation that gives them a bad name. Longer shackles, within reason, are a simple way to gain additional flex, provided they are done right. I challenge anyone to show proof that a 3" shackle is the ideal perfect length. Among the list of vehicles that use shackles you'll find a variance in lengths. Even the older Jeeps had shorter C shaped shackles. A similar vehicle, the Wrangler has 4" shackles.
It depends on their construction, the longer the more stout they need to be as well as a solid block welded between the sides. And on a stock Jeep it's the mounts that fail not the shackles. Adding length also adds leverage forces so the mounts should be beefed up as well.
I had 5 1/4" ConFerr shackles on mine for 26 years without issue. It was the mounts that failed (twisted). I currently have 5" ones on it. Warrior brand with welded construction and 3/8" sides. I foresee no problems since I have M.O.R.E. mounts as well. Theres also a reason manfacturers limit shackle lifts to 2". There is a safe limit, even though high lifted show rigs push that limit.

Been run'n my ConFerr's for decades.
The pictures WW just post'd sez a bunch. A good example of what to look for.
LG

 

[HackFabrication]

3/4" ConFerr's (3/8" lift) with SlickRock hangers and 2.5" BDS springs. ADDCO swaybar and TrailQuest disconnects/U-bolt plates:







A lot of other things will break before those ConFerr shackles. Big loss to the off-road community when they went out of business. I really wish I had purchased their axle trusses.

 

[Dolamite]

Like this........20 degrees or better up to 45 degrees........anywhere near negative or 90 degrees will kill the ride or invert the springs. And it's never a good Idea to use shackles to increase lift.



View attachment 19947

I'm sure the cheap Rough Country springs aren't doing anything for the ride, but it sounds like this shackle angle isn't helping either.

Is it possible to specify length of springs when ordering? Most kits I see only offer by make and model year.

 

[tarry99]

And the shackle debacle continues to go on as it has for many years.........I'm amazed at how many folks do not understand shackle lengths and how they effect many things like caster , pinion angle , leverage on the shackle mount, increased wear to the bushings, spring rate loads ETC.........notwithstanding that for every inch of shackle length the effective net lift is only 1/2 (one half ) of that dimension. So in effect if you wanted to lift your Jeep 2 inches you would have to start by adding 4 inches.

It seems that we get caught up in the narrative that Joe or Sam or Paul has longer shackles and he has for years and they seem to work OK so they must be good?......but then we later find out the same group always complains about there ride, the erratic steering , handling and the fact that tire wear is never as good as it should be........and even some think that perhaps the engineers at these manufactures somehow did not know what the heck they were doing in shackle length?

Is there a time that a longer shackle is needed? Absolutely......but only when dealing with a lifted longer mechanical length spring whereby the sole purpose is to get maximum length & articulation out of it while off road.


This is a good article take some time to read it.

Jeep Parts, Jeep Accessories & Jeep Soft Tops From The Jeep Parts Experts - Quadratec

Or , if you really truly want to get an education on shackles call Jeff Deaver of Deaver springs or Bill at Alcan Springs. Both experts in there field of building leaf springs for both on and off road.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

THX for that link.
I'm using the OEM springs that have been re-arched and an 'add-a-leaf' in each spring pack.
I did have to use 'shims' to bring the front axle back to OEM specs for the pinion angle. I had the Currie 9" in the rear built so I wouldn't need shims.
Everyone has to decide what works best for them. Mine has been fine for me and I drive desert and mtn roads and freeway with no issue.
OH-BTW, I have no sway bar either
LG

 

[Woolyworm]

Lumpy - why did you re-arc and add a leaf? Were they sagging? Did you have them new? How is the flex and ride new compared to now? How long ago did you do that work to them? Has the re-arc stayed in them? Are they YJ springs? Thanks!


Wooly

 

[Lumpy Grits]

They were re-arced(OEM CJ7 springs)for 2.5" lift and the add a leaf was add'd for that also. IIRC the total was about 3.5". They have settle'd down about 1/2" with all the Jeep'n I have done. I did break 1 add a leaf about 5 years ago. Replaced both front add a leafs and no issues since.
I bought the Jeep new in '85(still my DD). The re-arch was done 25+ yrs ago by a friend and master metal worker. I don't know what all he did to make it work so well. But they do.
The best way to get a fair ride with leaf springs, is to use 'wimpy' shocks.
LG

 

[HackFabrication]

The best way to get a fair ride with leaf springs, is to use 'wimpy' shocks.

And a comfortable seat....