Suspension Recommendation for a CJ Hunting Rig Build

[Blackout]

Hello all,

My Hunting buddy and I just purchased our first CJ ! We are tired of banging up our full size long wheel base 4x4's !

It's a 77 with a AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l eng, 3 speed Transmission , stock Xsfer and stock 3.54 diffs with 31x10.5's. It Looks to have a 2" lift

This rig is going to be towed to our hunt areas and used on 4x4/jeep trails only. Though there are some pretty good dry creek beds that can be challenging there will be no heavy rock crawling. Also....The roads can get pretty snotty when wet. It will never be driven on the highway, only flat towed.

We are looking to get some good ground clearance. We were thinking of going with a 4" lift, a drop pitman, decent shocks and 33" tires. Since we don't need it to ride great on the street we would like to get the best bang for the buck.

Looking forward to any and all recommendations and thoughts.

Thanks!

 

[HackFabrication]

Ground clearance means big tires, as the lowest part of the vehicle not touching the road is the axles and differentials. 33's will get you some. 35's will get you more. Any larger diameter tire will not be healthy for the Dana 30 front axle or the AMC20 with 2-piece axles.

Is the Jeep a CJ5 or a CJ7 ? Both had narrow track axles in 1977 (if they are original).

Low budget, I'd do the 4" SUA lift with a 1" body lift. That will get a set of 35's under the CJ. If you really flex the suspension, you may need to trim some of the sheet metal. You will need to adjust the steering stops, as the larger tires will hit the springs on the narrow track axles.

Got more $$$?? Look for a set of Wagoneer Dana 44 axles. More width, good for tires up to 38" - 39". Go with a well designed SOA and you'll have tons of ground clearance.

Got even more $$$$?? Go with a custom set of full width 9" or Dana 60's, and slap on a set of 40" tires.

However, if you plan on keeping the stock engine/Transmission /Transfer Case , you won't obtain full potential from the bigger axles.

 

[tarry99]

Hello all,

My Hunting buddy and I just purchased our first CJ ! We are tired of banging up our full size long wheel base 4x4's !

It's a 77 with a AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l eng, 3 speed Transmission , stock Xsfer and stock 3.54 diffs with 31x10.5's. It Looks to have a 2" lift

This rig is going to be towed to our hunt areas and used on 4x4/jeep trails only. Though there are some pretty good dry creek beds that can be challenging there will be no heavy rock crawling. Also....The roads can get pretty snotty when wet. It will never be driven on the highway, only flat towed.

We are looking to get some good ground clearance. We were thinking of going with a 4" lift, a drop pitman, decent shocks and 33" tires. Since we don't need it to ride great on the street we would like to get the best bang for the buck.

Looking forward to any and all recommendations and thoughts.

Thanks!

Hi from the Bay Area.........I've hunted all over the Western US on remote BLM land routinely 40-50 miles off the pavement for 30 plus years while dragging around my 65 CJ5 Dauntless Buick 225 V6 powered Jeep on 32" tires with a 3 speed and 4.27 rear gears and only a Powr-Lok in the rear...........That Jeep in its current form has also been driven from the Bay Area through the Rubicon and back twice with no issue's........If your hunting in California I doubt that any trails or areas that you need to access would be much more challenging than the Rubicon........
Point is a bunch of lift and larger tires just add to a higher center of gravity , drive shaft issues and a rough ride that you do not need while hunting.

33 inch tires for me would be max along with a 2.5-3 inch lift and trim some sheet metal.......A good inventory of recovery tools is by far more important than big tire's or lift.......A good 8-9000 lb winch..........plenty of cable with addition chokers. snatch blocks and tow points both front and rear......and if you want to spend a little extra put a locker in the rear and perhaps a granny Low Transmission in there like a T-18 . A lower rear axle ratio will also help it's climbing ability..........
Ask me how I know? ...........Send me a PM if you like.

 

[Blackout]

Hack,

Thanks for the reply and recs. The jeep is a CJ7 , sorry for leaving that out.

We do plan on leaving the engine stock. Transmission & Tcase may upgrade in the future. Right now we want to get this thing hunt ready for this season.

I hear you on the stock axles. That's why we were thinking 33's with the 3.54 ratio. We did not want to change the axles or gears

On your low budget rec. Are there any lift kits you would recommend?

On the $$$ - What year wagoneer axles and how much wider are they?

 

[Blackout]

Tarry99,

Thanks for the Ideas. Especially on the recovery tools! We already have a winch, jack, tow hooks, etc..... We will add some extra snatch blocks and straps.

I was looking at the Skyjacker soft ride 4" lift. People have stated the Pro - that it rides real nice and the Con - that it settles to about 3".

I know that the 2 piece rear axles are the weak point. We are debating on upgrading the axles and going with 456's and a locker. I'd like to find a full floater kit for towing. Or just getting a Dana 44 with the same.

Thanks Again!

Paul

 

[Torxhead]

Blackout, you might want to add a chain saw to that recovery list, when trees die they do tend to fall. A bow saw is pretty much minumal. Good hunting!

 

[HackFabrication]

...I know that the 2 piece rear axles are the weak point. We are debating on upgrading the axles and going with 456's and a locker. I'd like to find a full floater kit for towing. Or just getting a Dana 44 with the same.

Longevity of driveline components can vary, depending on how difficult the terrain is, and what your particular driving style is. Stock CJ's covered hundreds of thousand of miles over difficult terrain. Most often getting their occupants in/out without incident.

That being said, here's how my 76 CJ5 is set up:

I'm running the stock narrow track 30/20 combo (they both have been completely rebuilt), on a 2.5" BDS lift and 3/8" Con-Fer shackles with Energy Suspension poly bushings. I've upgraded the 20 to Moser 1pc axles and welded tubes. The front was upgraded with 84 CJ disk brakes and MileMarker Supreme hubs. Rear has stock 11" drums. VANCO hydroboost. Both have 4.56 gears and ARB air lockers. The Jeep also has Tom Woods custom drive shafts and the rear is a CV type. Transmission is a Ford T18a, Transfer Case is the Dana 20 with a TerraLow 3.15 kit installed and twin-sticked. With 32x11.50-15 TSL/SX tires installed on aluminum rims.

The above gives me a crawl ratio of 90:1. More importantly, my crawl speed at 750 rpm is 69 fpm or .79 mph in 'low/low'.

Lockable hubs are a 'fuse' in any driveline. They will break before something else does. Although having the ability to unlock the rear axle is a nicety, I wouldn't want the vulnerability on a vehicle that has to get me back to civilization. Easier to just disconnect the rear driveshaft, imho, than to have to limp out on the front axle (hoping the lockable hubs don't grenade).

 

[Blackout]

Hack,

Nice rig! It will be a while before I'm where your at!

What about the brake hoses with the lift kit? is there a direct replacement?

 

[tarry99]

Tarry99,

Thanks for the Ideas. Especially on the recovery tools! We already have a winch, jack, tow hooks, etc..... We will add some extra snatch blocks and straps.

I was looking at the Skyjacker soft ride 4" lift. People have stated the Pro - that it rides real nice and the Con - that it settles to about 3".

I know that the 2 piece rear axles are the weak point. We are debating on upgrading the axles and going with 456's and a locker. I'd like to find a full floater kit for towing. Or just getting a Dana 44 with the same.

Thanks Again!

Paul

Your 3.54 rear gears will absolutely kill you off road.........Before I would spend much money on springs and tire's I would be looking at re-gearing that Jeep so you can climb something!.........Sorry......but with a 2.99 low gear and 2:1 in the Dana 20 with the 3.54 rear gears that's a 21.16 Crawl ratio...hardly even capable of getting off the pavement.

As a comparision Hack has a 6:32 low with a 3.15 Dana 20 and 4.56 in the back.
6.32x3.15x4.56=90.78 CR. Huge difference.

Getting back to your springs , the best riding springs for your Jeep would be some YJ springs. You should have 2" in the front now and 2.5" in the back........the YJ's will be 2.5 at both ends and they make shackle conversions for the front.

You can either spend your money on that 20 rear getting new axles and welding up the tubes or do a centered 44 or a ford 8.8 or 9 inch...I'm not a big fan of putting wide axles on a trail Jeep for hunting , just from the standpoint of getting around tight area's between rocks and tree's......

The AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l is the good news as that motor has proven itself off road many times........There are lots of ways to upgrade the Jeep to be more capable. Gearing is first then suspension...........The pilot also makes a big difference.

Hell , I was in Colorado one year hunting in knee deep snow at least 10-15 miles in when an old dude and two of his buddies pulled in with a CJ3a loaded down and chained up on all 4's with a stock 4 banger under the hood........we were at near 7500 feet so I knew that little 4 banger was having a tough time.......but here they were like they were out on a Sunday Drive. Go figure!

 

[Blackout]

Your 3.54 rear gears will absolutely kill you off road.........Before I would spend much money on springs and tire's I would be looking at re-gearing that Jeep so you can climb something!.........Sorry......but with a 2.99 low gear and 2:1 in the Dana 20 with the 3.54 rear gears that's a 21.16 Crawl ratio...hardly even capable of getting off the pavement.

As a comparision Hack has a 6:32 low with a 3.15 Dana 20 and 4.56 in the back.
6.32x3.15x4.56=90.78 CR. Huge difference.

Getting back to your springs , the best riding springs for your Jeep would be some YJ springs. You should have 2" in the front now and 2.5" in the back........the YJ's will be 2.5 at both ends and they make shackle conversions for the front.

You can either spend your money on that 20 rear getting new axles and welding up the tubes or do a centered 44 or a ford 8.8 or 9 inch...I'm not a big fan of putting wide axles on a trail Jeep for hunting , just from the standpoint of getting around tight area's between rocks and tree's......

The AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l is the good news as that motor has proven itself off road many times........There are lots of ways to upgrade the Jeep to be more capable. Gearing is first then suspension...........The pilot also makes a big difference.

Hell , I was in Colorado one year hunting in knee deep snow at least 10-15 miles in when an old dude and two of his buddies pulled in with a CJ3a loaded down and chained up on all 4's with a stock 4 banger under the hood........we were at near 7500 feet so I knew that little 4 banger was having a tough time.......but here they were like they were out on a Sunday Drive. Go figure!

Tarry,

I agree 100% on the gearing. We are going with 456's, a locker and one piece axles in the AMC20 . We are going to weld the tubes and are also having some gussets fabricated.

I also have the word out for a T18a. The Tcase will wait till next year.

Qustion those YJ springs? order them at the lift height I want? What about shocks?

I hear you on hunting in Colorado.... we were outside of Rangley in Rio Blanco County. There were locals hunting in a 79 Cad Coupe de Ville - Chained up - wasn't snowing but it was raining real good ..... muddy and slick as hell!! We were chained up on all fours and having problems . Can't believe what people drive out in the middle of no where and the luck they have!

 

[mtnwhlr]

I hear you on hunting in Colorado.... we were outside of Rangley in Rio Blanco County. There were locals hunting in a 79 Cad Coupe de Ville - Chained up - wasn't snowing but it was raining real good ..... muddy and slick as hell!! We were chained up on all fours and having problems . Can't believe what people drive out in the middle of no where and the luck they have!

It's not luck it's living here all your life and knowing how to drive in it.

 

[Blackout]

mtnwhlr,

Right on! It is about the man behind the wheel. Was that you hunting out there in area 21? ... lol

 

[mtnwhlr]

Nope never owend a coupe de ville

 

[tarry99]

Tarry,

I agree 100% on the gearing. We are going with 456's, a locker and one piece axles in the AMC20 . We are going to weld the tubes and are also having some gussets fabricated.

I also have the word out for a T18a. The Tcase will wait till next year.

Qustion those YJ springs? order them at the lift height I want? What about shocks?

I hear you on hunting in Colorado.... we were outside of Rangley in Rio Blanco County. There were locals hunting in a 79 Cad Coupe de Ville - Chained up - wasn't snowing but it was raining real good ..... muddy and slick as hell!! We were chained up on all fours and having problems . Can't believe what people drive out in the middle of no where and the luck they have!

Talk to a few of the spring guy's..... the YJ springs are only about .750 longer than the CJ up front and I think the rears are the same length. Wait till you get the springs installed and then check the shock length you need.......No guessing then.......but it will not need an over extended shock.

I have a near new T-18 6:32 Ford Version sitting on the bench......Going to a 700R4 in the next build. PM me if your interested.

Rangely is not what it once was.......hunted that area years ago when you could drive into town and buy a non-res license and tags over the counter at a Bar! The Oil shale folks back in the 70's screwed that place up with all the roads they cut in..........what use to take us 2-3 days to get in 40-50 miles you could now get into where we hunted in 2 hours........that's how the folks in the Coupe de Ville's were getting in there.

Hunted all that area up the road from there Meeker,Rifle, Craig and down south around Gunnison & Montrose.

Had several rancher friends that I became acquainted with being back there so often that allowed me to gain access to remote BLM land through there property......of course a few coolers of fresh SF crab and French bread also made the trip back there.

Had a great time tramping around all over that area for about 9 years when where we hunted you never seen another person for 2 weeks. Then I just got tired of all the company there, Guys driving caddy's or lifted Texas plated pickups.....the remote hunting now is hard to find , maybe Nevada, few spots in Utah but tough to turn the clock back to what it used to be.

Here is a 10x11 non-typical 35 inch B&C buck that came out of there.

 

[Hedgehog]

I'm not at all a bliever in big lifts and huge tires. Those things are nice in wet or very muddy country where keeping most of your rig high and out of the mud is desireable. Most of the country we drive in the desert south west is dry, rocky and for some folks very steep.

If I were going with BIG tires I'd be picking BusaDaves brain. I like the way his Jeep sits on very sizeable tires. Low and serious rather than high and flighty.

When I got my CJ5 it was crazy high. It rode ....... well lets say the thing was dangerous. I pulled all the lift out of it I could without changing springa and there is still some lift there, I'm guessing 2"-3" and I've got a 5/8" body lift that has nothing to do with wanting the extra height, I needd it to properly fit my front body mount. Honestly I'd lower it if I had money for different springs. I've been driving the CJ5 for about 5 months now and it's taken a toll on my supply of Jeans and hunting pants. Right back pockets take damage from the hump (every real Jeep has a hump in the door) and the stretch getting short leggs up and in the Jeep tends to make spectacular tears that start at the belt line and stop at the bottom hem line. Seriously, these are all things to consider.

If you are driving a mix of both road and off road, I go against the grain and believe they are nearly a perfect gear. That is if you go ahead and install a T-18 , then even better with terra low gears in the Transfer Case . I like 31 or 32 inch tires, with 33's a possibility. 31's are easy to find and relatively inexpensive.

Now, if your Jeep is going to live life completely off road trading out the 3.54's for something like 4:11's or 4.28's wouldn't be a bad thing to do, but expensive. If you go that route make sure to carry LOTS of extra fuel, possibly add a 20 gallon tank.

Low spring height, good low

 

[Blackout]

Hedgehog,

Thanks for the advice! All good stuff to think about.

Paul

 

[jdcaples]

Hello all,

My Hunting buddy and I just purchased our first CJ ! We are tired of banging up our full size long wheel base 4x4's !
<snip>

Just curious:

How much clearance do have with your full sized, long wheel base 4x4?

Did you ever skuff a skid plate (or damage what should have been protected by a skid plate?

-Jon

 

[Blackout]

We scraped the skid plate once or twice......(and a few other things) maybe a few times more. . . . . ,LOL. I believe if your not scuffing something out there your not having fun!

No serious undercarriage damage or breakage. We mainly tear up the front and rear bumpers and drag the trailer hitches from crossing dry creek beds. We have been out there in stock tire height to 33" tires in Ford, Dodge and Chevy from 1/2 ton - 1 ton. Also with some lifted. The lifted full size do better by far until it comes to maneuvering through tight spots.
We always wanted a short WB 4X4 to better maneuver the trails and traverse the creek beds..... without having to worry about the *** end bottoming out.

Paul

 

[jdcaples]

We have been out there in stock tire height to 33" tires in Ford, Dodge and Chevy from 1/2 ton - 1 ton. Also with some lifted. The lifted full size do better by far <snip>

Paul

How many inches do you have to lift the CJ so its ground clearance matches the best performing lifted full size 4x4?

-Jon

 

[Blackout]

How many inches do you have to lift the CJ so its ground clearance matches the best performing lifted full size 4x4?

-Jon

Jon,

Hard to answer ... but I will try.

If we compare apples to apples, IMHO I believe any CJ with a 2.5 - 4" lift with 33 - 35 inch tires, with correct gearing will go any where and out maneuver any full size P/U with the same set up. The Short WB will rule

Ground clearance has nothing to do with lift. Its how high the lowest point of your rig is. Which is going to be your diff.
The taller the tire the more ground clearance your diff will have.
With that being said... I would venture to say it will be about the same "ground clearance" as any vehicle out there with the same tires.

The lift is what you will need (and maybe some cutting ) for your tires to clear your body and suspension flex.

Don't take my word as bible cause I'm still learning about the CJ from all the good people here in this forum.

I hope this answered your question some what??

And please anyone else, feel free to join in and correct me if I am mis informing.

Thanks,

Paul