toe in on a cj

[grunt]

Checked my toe in a few times using the "yard stick method". I'm getting 1/8 to 3/16 which seems to be correct. I have seen other literature that states up to 1/4 inch. I'm running 32 inch tires. Recently put in my 4 degree shims and definitely a improvement. Steering wheels starts to to return just a tad from a turn but not all the way. Anybody think a little bit more toe in will solve the problem? Would the drag link not adjusted right cause some of this? All info is appreciated...

 

[Purple77CJ7]

Steering wheel return to center is usually caster angle. If you put a lift on you most likely lost castor angle. If you are close to 0 degrees it won't center with out help. It needs 3-4 degrees toward the rear. Your toe-in is right. The drag link is used to center your steering wheel in relation to the front tires. Tires straight ahead then use drag link to center steering wheel.

 

[tarry99]

Checked my toe in a few times using the "yard stick method". I'm getting 1/8 to 3/16 which seems to be correct. I have seen other literature that states up to 1/4 inch. I'm running 32 inch tires. Recently put in my 4 degree shims and definitely a improvement. Steering wheels starts to to return just a tad from a turn but not all the way. Anybody think a little bit more toe in will solve the problem? Would the drag link not adjusted right cause some of this? All info is appreciated...

I agree with Purple...........but it sounds like you nos have 4 degrees which should be fine.
1/4" toe in is a bunch 1/8" is more like it..............is this a Manual or Power steering gear?
There are a number of other reasons that the wheel may not want to return to center..........here are just a few, worn Suspension parts , improper steering geometry , worn tires or wear patterns , incorrect pressure & centering the gear box & steering wheel left to right. There is a sweet spot in the center of your gear box.
Does the Jeep go down the road straight if you let go of the wheel?

 

[grunt]

tarry99...yes the jeep goes straight down the road perfectly. Tires are almost brand new (balanced) with little miles on them and no wear pattern. I have a new borgeson steering shaft installed with a steering box brace also . I have a power steering box....

 

[tarry99]

tarry99...yes the jeep goes straight down the road perfectly. Tires are almost brand new (balanced) with little miles on them and no wear pattern. I have a new borgeson steering shaft installed with a steering box brace also . I have a power steering box....

Grunt...........Ok so your checking a lot of things off the list and that's good. Have you changed the suspension or raised the jeep?
You said you did a yard stick measurement ???????? for toe in.
Since you say you have caster and you should again verify that I would again do another check on the toe-in.......
best method is to raise both the front wheels just an inch off the ground with two bottle jacks or whatever, point is you do not want the suspension hanging just the front tires off the ground...........spin the tire and take some chalk and make a chalk line around the tire as its spinning...........next take a nail and while the tire is again spinning make a fine line in the chalk......do both sides and then with the help of a friend take a tape measure and compare the lines front and back of the tire.......give it an 1/8 to 3/16 toe in and see if that fixes your problem.

 

[grunt]

tarry99...the jeep had a suspension lift on it when I acquired it. A rugged trail lift (not in business anymore)...not sure on the amount....maybe 4 inch. Shackles are longer than stock. Measure the castor the best I could ( maybe I needed 6 degree steel shims) Actually I did the stick method...here...
http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f99/troubleshooting-correcting-your-steering-4106/
Did the shims because they were inexpensive. I know longer shackles can cause havoc....with the shackles I have now I might be able to place the leaf springs higher into the shackle. In other words make the shackle shorter. I'll take some pics tomorrow. Anymore info is appreciated....

 

[tarry99]

tarry99...the jeep had a suspension lift on it when I acquired it. A rugged trail lift (not in business anymore)...not sure on the amount....maybe 4 inch. Shackles are longer than stock. Measure the castor the best I could ( maybe I needed 6 degree steel shims) Actually I did the stick method...here...
http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f99/troubleshooting-correcting-your-steering-4106/
Did the shims because they were inexpensive. I know longer shackles can cause havoc....with the shackles I have now I might be able to place the leaf springs higher into the shackle. In other words make the shackle shorter. I'll take some pics tomorrow. Anymore info is appreciated....

Grunt............First off the lift has me concerned , along with the long shackles which do & will raise havoc.............I would not increase your castor to 6 degrees simply because your just putting a band-aid on it to cover other issues.
I think the shackles need to go.......I would like to see a picture of the drag link from the pittman arm to the spindle to look at its angle. I think you need to address a few things like mentioned and once the suspension & lift is not giving the steering fits then I think your 3-4 degrees castor along with proper toe in will be fine. Just need to correct all the negatives elsewhere first.
The stick toe in method is OK , but the method I mentioned will get it dead nuts!

 

[grunt]

Here are the pics of the shackles..front...



rear.....



The rear shackle the leaf spring is in the bottom hole, the front shackle the the leaf spring is in the hole above the bottom hole. Seems strange but the jeep is level. I was thinking of putting the rear leaf spring up one hole and the front drill a hole in the shackle a little bit higher. Only thing the front leaf spring will be real close to the tie rod.....here is a pic of the front.....


Any thoughts?......

 

[tarry99]

Here are the pics of the shackles..front...



rear.....



The rear shackle the leaf spring is in the bottom hole, the front shackle the the leaf spring is in the hole above the bottom hole. Seems strange but the jeep is level. I was thinking of putting the rear leaf spring up one hole and the front drill a hole in the shackle a little bit higher. Only thing the front leaf spring will be real close to the tie rod.....here is a pic of the front.....


Any thoughts?......

Grunt.............Like I said before, the long shackles need to go........that is just a terrible and unsafe way to get lift.......They just make the Jeep unstable and add to countless problems regarding steering geometry........notwithstanding adding degree wedges..........Most people would suggest a spring perch R&R......It seems that your springs really do not have much lift in the first place.
I'll think about some suggestions..........

 

[Old Dog]

thoes look like some cheap one size fits all shackles, you really need to get some good stock size ones.

 

[grunt]

I know I need new shackles and thanks for the replies but for the moment (money is tight) can I move the leaf springs up into the shackles that I have since they are long? And if I can is there anything special tricks that I need to know or is it pretty straight forward?

 

[tarry99]

I know I need new shackles and thanks for the replies but for the moment (money is tight) can I move the leaf springs up into the shackles that I have since they are long? And if I can is there anything special tricks that I need to know or is it pretty straight forward?

Grunt,

Yes , by all means take the existing material and shorten them down to a stock dimension length center to center......Not sure on your vehicle? , I think that's around 3" to 3.5" inches. If the existing top holes have been elongated then move the pattern and drill all new holes.
But , your lift on your springs may be the deciding factor as it looks like your tie rod is pretty close to hitting now........I can't tell from the photo's what position your tie rods ends are on your knuckles.........if there on the bottom , then consider a tie rod flip to the top side..........the Goforit bushings are a good choice for that.

 

[tarry99]

I know I need new shackles and thanks for the replies but for the moment (money is tight) can I move the leaf springs up into the shackles that I have since they are long? And if I can is there anything special tricks that I need to know or is it pretty straight forward?

Grunt

One last thing and I know money is tight............while you have the shackles apart check the condition of the frame & spring bushings.
Overall , the goal here would be to tighten up any looseness in your suspension that had been created by the swaying motion that occurs from long shackles as the rubber bushings wear out.
All of which will aid in getting your steering system back to normal and allow it to react correctly.

 

[grunt]

Grunt

One last thing and I know money is tight............while you have the shackles apart check the condition of the frame & spring bushings.
Overall , the goal here would be to tighten up any looseness in your suspension that had been created by the swaying motion that occurs from long shackles as the rubber bushings wear out.
All of which will aid in getting your steering system back to normal and allow it to react correctly.

Thanks again....it might be a while but I'll post how I make out in the future...