1985 CJ7 258 6 cylinder Idling Rough

1985 CJ7 258 6 cylinder Idling Rough

Swampdawg

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Location
Atlanta Area
Vehicle(s)
1985 CJ7 258 6 -cylinder -A/T w/ 4X4 - All Stock - Ice Blue w/Black Hardtop
Good Evening, My CJ7 just started idling poorly from one day to the next. I had a mechanic clean the old idle tubes and ventura and it showed no improvement. He checked all the vacuum hoses and could not find a leak. It has good compression, timing is correct and starts right up. It runs smooth on the highway and has good power.
Note: It does idle smoother if you disconnect the vacuum on the spark advance module.???????
Thanks for any tips!
Swampdawg
Near Atlanta
 
Have you checked your ignition system (cap, rotor, wires, plugs, etc..)?
One bad wire, plug, or contact is more then noticeable on an inline 6


I used to have an unnerving rough idle that I couldnt rid myself of until I swapped my stock ignition over to TFI. The larger cap and hotter spark seem to agree with the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l . The stock system is very succeptable to things like cross firing and weak spark distribution.

I always suggest a TFI or HEI upgrade, but keeping the stock ignition system in top form can solve a lot of rough idle situations...You can always upgrade later.
 
Thanks CJIM7! I will get my mechanic friend to help me check all these out. I just wondered how it can go bad from one day to the next. I just believe there is one (1) assignable cause creating my problem. I don't think anything wore out in one day, it sounds more like a vacuum hose or a loose connection or trash in the carb or water in the tank or bad gasoline or something like that. I guess it could be a spark plug or wire but not would create a miss going down the highway and the thing runs smooth on the road. It just idles bad.
 
Stuff like this almost requires a crystal ball to diagnosis over the net. Agreed, all the carbed motors need an HEI ignition change over. I learned years ago on both the 6s and the 8s to loose the factory carb, and replace with a pre-emissions Ford 2bbl. On the 6, youd want the ( is it a 1.06 or 1.08 ? ) Venturi carb. Or at least thats how I remember it.

Its day an night difference as to how they run (assuming youve got good compression and hitting on 6 holes) Ive found it cheaper and quicker just to loose the carb and distributor, than try to make the emissions motor run right with so much time on it. It just aint worth it. Just my $.02
 
Thanks CJIM7! I will get my mechanic friend to help me check all these out. I just wondered how it can go bad from one day to the next. I just believe there is one (1) assignable cause creating my problem. I don't think anything wore out in one day, it sounds more like a vacuum hose or a loose connection or trash in the carb or water in the tank or bad gasoline or something like that. I guess it could be a spark plug or wire but not would create a miss going down the highway and the thing runs smooth on the road. It just idles bad.

Has your weather been "goofy" lately?
...I remember times when my Cj would run like absolute doggy-doo when it rained. The Duraspark ignition, CJ-edition, seems to be very prone to weather changes, humidity, rain...Some dielectric grease often helps.
 
I guess it could be a spark plug or wire but not would create a miss going down the highway and the thing runs smooth on the road. It just idles bad.

Case in point,
My Mustang developed a wierd running pattern. Bad idle, terrible lowend power, stalling. But once it got up to cruising speed or gained any amount of RPM, it would pull strong. Almost like there was no problem at all.

What I found was a couple bad wires...One was worn to the core so bad it shocked the hell out of me when I touched it. Along with that was a loose spark plug.
I replaced the plugs and wires and it was like having a new engine. Perfect idle, crisp acceleration
 
My old '81 had the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l . Sometimes it would idle just perfect, then out of the blue it would act up and idle rough. It always seemed to clear itself up tho, but then later on it would go back to having a rough idle. I used to spray carb cleaner down the carb, blow compressed air through every port I could reach inside the carb. Finally I rebuilt the carb. I still had the problem. It turned out to be a worn timing chain/gear set. I put a new one on and I never had the rough idle problem after that.
 
Thanks Guys!... I think you are right because old engine w/smog control processes like the 1985 /AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l w/Carter -BBD Carb w/ Stepping motor, CTO valve, O2 Sensors, Knock Sensor, Upstream Solenoid, Downstream Solenoid, HG Switch and miles of vacuum hoses had some specialist back in the day when they had to work on them regularly but with time some of the little nuisances and troubleshooting techniques have been forgotten and never learned by our modern day mechanics. Therefore, I believe correcting engine issues on these old engines is hit and miss and some get lucky. Now a true mechanic can troubleshoot anything and find the assignable cause w/o changing out all the usual suspects sparing no expense. Now I am 64 years old and I bought the Jeep a few years ago because I like the old stuff, just like my old Corvette and my old Motorcycle. When I can tune an old engine and find the assignable causes and hear the engine smooth out it gives you a tingle and a good feeling from your hands to your elbows up your shoulders and all the way to your heart. You get that great feeling of accomplishment when you get an old toy running smooth. Why.. when I got my 1975 Gravely Tractor tuned up and running good.. why that old Kohler ran like a new one. I want my old Jeep to get the same treatment. I don't want to jury rig it with none stock parts. I like my old stuff to stay original. Why... it ran good when it was new and a good mechanic can make it run good again. Where have all the good mechanics gone?
Thanks guys for all your replies to my post. I won't give up. I am destined to get this old baby purring again. She is a fine Jeep!
 
CJIM7, Where do you put the dielectric grease? It has been a very wet and damp winter in my neck of the woods east of Atlanta here. Why... Al Gore said it was Global Warming causing all these record low temps and wet and cold weather.
 
Thanks Guys!... I think you are right because old engine w/smog control processes like the 1985 /AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l w/Carter -BBD Carb w/ Stepping motor, CTO valve, O2 Sensors, Knock Sensor, Upstream Solenoid, Downstream Solenoid, HG Switch and miles of vacuum hoses had some specialist back in the day when they had to work on them regularly but with time some of the little nuisances and troubleshooting techniques have been forgotten and never learned by our modern day mechanics. Therefore, I believe correcting engine issues on these old engines is hit and miss and some get lucky. Now a true mechanic can troubleshoot anything and find the assignable cause w/o changing out all the usual suspects sparing no expense. Now I am 64 years old and I bought the Jeep a few years ago because I like the old stuff, just like my old Corvette and my old Motorcycle. When I can tune an old engine and find the assignable causes and hear the engine smooth out it gives you a tingle and a good feeling from your hands to your elbows up your shoulders and all the way to your heart. You get that great feeling of accomplishment when you get an old toy running smooth. Why.. when I got my 1975 Gravely Tractor tuned up and running good.. why that old Kohler ran like a new one. I want my old Jeep to get the same treatment. I don't want to jury rig it with none stock parts. I like my old stuff to stay original. Why... it ran good when it was new and a good mechanic can make it run good again. Where have all the good mechanics gone?
Thanks guys for all your replies to my post. I won't give up. I am destined to get this old baby purring again. She is a fine Jeep!


Ok, hear ya, loud and clear. The fable of Humpty dumpty... that might be a good application here. Ive worked next to several good ASE Master Certified Techs. Having said that, I have learned that not every horse is worth kicking, because sometimes the horse just ain't get back on its feet. Its hard to get a Master Tech to change out a system, but I have seen it happen out of necessity. Its not that good mechanics don't exist, but common sense takes over at some point, and thats how a Carter BBD ends up finding a new home.

My point is this, even the best mechanic, has to cut his losses on a loser and move on. You can spend countless hours trying to diagnosis a piss-poor system. The fuel and ignition system on you're jeep, just doesn't have what it takes to "get-r-done" by the time is 25 years old. Yes, if your engine is 100% solid on the bottom end with proper vacuum and you're not bothered by going through the carb, replacing every emissions component on the truck, you might get it running "like new". And thats assuming the ECM and wiring are all 100% too. At that point, nobody would be surprised if you still didn't get that idle back.

Swapping a early Motorcraft 2100/2150 and an HEI distributor in that motor, although not stock, will cause it to run soooo much better, with more power, easier starting, better idling, it should really excite you. It wont be stock, but my god it will run different. Just food for thought. I don't like my stuff hacked up either, but these things ain't right to begin with.

So its like this, fixing it to restore that "idle" you like, you could spend the money making it run right, instead of fixing a really mediocre system to begin with. "Chasing bad money with good" to me is trying to fix the idle. I don't usually promote "rigging" stuff, but this is one of those cases, where it really can be a simple permanent solution to a really poor system. Keep in mind, the OE system runs lean when perfect, when things go awry, they run even leaner, there goes idle, driveabililty and power.

One other thing, that engine/head, in that era, from a design standpoint was never supposed to make "emissions". The engineers put a fuel and ignition system on a motor and tried to make it work. It did to a point, but not very well. All the early 80s engines where that way, some manufactures did a much better job than others, I think AMC did the worst, so keep that in mind when weighing your options, its a potpourri of parts and systems, that was really just band-aided on a motor.

Just my $.02, best wishes, Bill
 
I agree. That is why when I first got my '84 (California smog edition), I decided to start from scratch and eliminate everything that might be troublesome. I recognized it was a shoddy system from the moment I popped the hood. Even the local Jeep dealers shook their heads at the first generation emmisions control system that was hurriedly slapped on to appease the rapidly growing CA restrictions placed on vehicles. AMC knew it was on it's way out, and it really didnt spend a lot of money testing and perfecting. This is painfully obvious.

Emmisions laws considered, I stripped it all down and started with a bare engine to work with. Really, the only thing I ever ran that wasn't stock was the TFI, and that's just a very upgraded version of the stock ignition. The engine was just cleaned up with out all the garbage that was hampering function, reliability, and performance. The Carter bbd is a very touchy animal. One flaw in the system and it is flat on it's face. The problem with that is the system is flawed to begin with.
 
Thanks Guys! for your feedback. Trust me... I genuinely appreciate your inputs! I believe you guys have a passion about the Carter BBD... LOL. I understand your appreciation for new and improved equipment if it is out there. Since we don't have the EPA Police in our county yet, I probably will proceed with the upgrades because when I retire this year I plan on using the Jeep more than my pick up truck. Say... Where would you suggest I shop for the MC2100 and the HEI? Do the Parts Chain Stores have any good carbs? We have NAPA, Advance, Autozone and O'Reiley in our small town east of Atlanta. Additionly, Where can I find Jeep Carb Conversion for Dummies?

Just one more thing... Tonight on the Georgia News they had a segment regarding the problems people are having with their fuel systems by running 10 % Ethanol. I noticed the station that I use has it in their mix. Any chance that could make a 1985 Jeep run bad? My old Jeep started running bad from one day to the next and I believe I did buy that gasoline along in that period.

Thanks Once Again Guys!
 
you can find motorcraft 2100 from v8 jeeps of the 70s, ford pickups and cars with a 2bbl and small v8 or i6, just make sure you get one with 1.08 stamped on the side, you need an adapter plate from summit found here Trans-Dapt Performance Products 2086 - Trans-Dapt Performance Carburetor Adapters - Overview - SummitRacing.com
or you being in atlanta, could just run on down to mcdonough to the summit store and pick one up and while your there get you one of these Summit Racing SUM-850047 - Summit Racing® Blueprinted HEI Distributors - Overview - SummitRacing.com
 
Mostly the Motorcraft 2100, or Autolite 2100 depending on how old it is, is procured at a local used parts business, or ebay, or internet classifieds. You can find "factory reman" carbs, and they are terribly expensive.

Ive bought 2100s on ebay in the $10-$15 neighborhood plus postage. You then go to your favorite auto parts store and get a carb kit for the used carb (be sure to get a carb that has the ID tag still attached, it will be on the top of the body of the carb, and will have numbers stamped on it). You take it apart, clean it, and put the new gaskets/accelerator pump on it and install. The older the 2100 the better. You also want to look for a 1.08 Venturi sized carb. Its cast on the exterior. Also want to ask if the throttle shaft is tight, you dont want a loose shaft, you will have a vacuum leak.

There have got to be several very good write ups on this on the internet.

Also the HEI ignition swap is well documented too, somebody will probably come along shortly and provide a link.
 
Sounds Good Guys! I will definitely start my search and do some shopping. I have a mechanic friend who works on Jets at Delta so he will probably be able to help me with the upgrade. CheepJeep85, I live near Covington which is very close to McDonough so I could run over there easily. I love my 85 Jeep and I will keep her a long time. Say.. Did I tell you that I am the 2nd owner! I bought it from the lady who bought it brand new at a dealer in the next county over. She keep it until 2007 and sold it to me. It had 94,000 miles on it. I have 135,000 on it now. It still has the original seat covers and carpet. It is an automatic too which still shift excellent. It is a 4X4 which worked really well a couple of weeks ago when we had the Snow and Ice. Why... I was the only one that made it to work on that Monday morning.

Thanks again my friends and this is a great forum! I will post a photo of my jeep when I get one.
 
Swampdawg,

This is a very common issue with the 80's AMC Engines. These are feedback and self adjusting systems. AMC used a Ford Duraspark Ignition during this time period.... so this is true for AMC and the FORD units for the late 70's, 80's too......... so this would be true for you Ford Mustang from this period.

When the feedback Carter Carb, knock sensor, Distributor Mechanics, O2 sensor, computer do not work properly, talk to each other, or are removed..... the computer and carb go into limp mode.

LIMP MODE..... will lock the feedback pins on carb to a limp condition, fixed, and the ignition will also be in limp mode. Poor running situation, lack of pep, pooor mileage, poor idle. Will still run

Good info on the mileage.... before I rip stuff apart and make purchases this is great info to have. 130, 000 Miles is a fair amount. Recommend a compression test and record to see what you base line is.... Poor compression could cause poor idle issues and give you a good idea of what results/improvemnt would be attainable. I would do this before you do any major work on a 130k engine.

Spark Plugs...
What do you spark plugs look like? Front cylinger is #1 and firewall one is the #6 on the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l and AMC 232 i6 engines. Write down what they look like and record in a note book and I take pictures too. Use std copper AUTOLITE spark plugs and gap to .032. All plugs need uniform gaps and good quality wires and caps.

IMPROVEMENT AREAS.....

The Ford DuraSpark Ignition
Uses the distributor for ground for the ignition. It is a weak link and causes major issues. Alumium body distributor gets ground from the locking foot on its mount. Galvonic Corossion (aluminum/steel) is not conductive and its a DC circuite so the electrons go out from the battery and make a complete loop back to battery. The spark energy and the operation of the inductive pick up to see position of distributor to signal the spark release for each cylinger can be affected by this WEAK GROUND. The way to fix this is cut the BLACK/Ground wire goinging into the spark modual......

I cut the black wire on the harness side vs the spark modual side so the aux ground stays with the engine bay if the spark modual every needs to be changed/replaced. Solder in a 12-14 awg black wire, cover with heat shring. and ground direclty to battery or the fire wall. The spark modual is on the passenger fender, so I used the firewall and added aux ground to the firewall. This is a HUGE UPGRADE.

(future topic) aux grounds needed for firewall, dash, grill, alternator, starter, block, frame, CJs have very weak grounds.

Carter Carb BBD, idle tubes so plug up...
You did mention the idle tubes were cleaned out...... good step and the BBD tube do need to be cleaned out to correct poor idle.... Many write ups on this you carefullly look down the throat of carb while running. If the idle tube dribble / drops of fuel vs a stream of fuel they are plugged up. These are often drilled out to .032" to solve the pluggs. The BBDs need rebuilds every 2-4 years or when there are issues.... just part of this carb. Feedback BBDs can also have the feedback pins set fixed position when the FULL SYSTEM is not going to be used.

WHEN POOR IDLE is the issue.... look to the CARTER BBDcarb first.
Swampdawg said this was done or some of it was done.... The next ck would be the ground for the ignition as said above.

MORE IGNITION
After compression ck, add igniton ground & maybe other aux grounds, ck spark plug results.
There is a very good igntion upgrade using TUNE UP PARTS.... this uses a better quality distributor cap and rotar. Uses a adapter for larger diameter and taller distributor CAP with brass contacts. Few buck more but a major upgrade FORD developed and its backward compatible to the CJs of 70s and 80s. Alumium Terminal CAPs are JUNK if you have one and have issues replace it with a brass terminal cap. The larger diameter taller cap cuts down on cross fire, ionization issues, and grounding out the distributor weights and body (another path to ground vs spark plugs). This is a huge HUGE HUGE HUGE>>>> upgrade>>>>> we all need to do this on you next tunes..... This gave me 20% more preformance on a rebuilt long block.... I use the BBD cap and rotar and Oriley has lifetime warranty and good prices. Also like the MSD version but it is a bit more money. Only issue is the UPGRADE CAP uses male terminals and the spark plug wires are going to need changing also. My yields were:
20% more preformance
pep increased 20%
MPG went up about 4mpg, I get 24 mpg with my set up at 60mph
Max RPMs went from 3200 range to 4500 range
Better Starts, smoother idle

Spark plug wires are junk if you buy the ones from the auto stores. They can fail out of the box as well as the sprark plugs. If you drop a spark plug on the ground... throw it out... the carb stack crack and fail if you drop them... could have been mentioned above.... The best wires are the MSD wires they last longer and work better they run about $75 from summit racing. The other wires I use but not as good are the NAPA Belding Dark Navy Blue wires they work well and have lifetime warranty.

The spark energy needs to get to the spark plug gap to the fire. Timing, cap, rotar, plug wires all need to be excellent to get the energy to cylinder.

The next step is overlooked often....

80s Computer CJs have a very Limited mech advance in distributor..
The duraspark distributor is 25 to 35 yrs old and still working. ....its what I have still.... get 24mpg, 80-90 mph speeds, 650 idle speed, strong pulls from 650 - 4500 rpms... it works fine is set up correctly.
The computer control CJ's distributors are a bit different. There are two mech advance slots with limits of 5 and 8 degrees. The PREcomputer versions have two mech advance slots of 13 and 18 degrees. Usually factory has them set on the smaller slots. Swampdawg is (guess) likely set on 5 deg mech advance. This is one of the more advance corrections but the slot can be opened up in width to equal the 13 - 18 slot of the 1970's. This is a huge short comming.

When you remove the Carter BBD Feedback, computer, knock sensor, or O2 sensor or they fail the engine control goes limp and operation suffers.

This can be corrected by
Open the limit slot to the 13-18 deg range
Purchase a Cardon Rebuilt Distributor with the larger slots (need to look) $50 with lifetime warranty
Purchase the MSD Distributor, true upgrade, for the CJ $200 est
Modify the stock distributor with a larger slot.... free

I do not like the HEI distrubtors for the AMC Engines.... many short commings with hard starts, too much advance, advance curves that need to be correct, hardened gears, and many failed AMC engines. I am sure more will be published on the HEIs. I do not like the HEIs on AMC they cause more issues then they solve and the user should be very well read before using.... ONe of the most heated topics on the CJ

COIL ISSUES.......
Coils like to fail and get weak..... When plug wires are pulled, fail, spark energy does not have goood ground, etc, the coil wire spark out internal to coil and over time these short will make the coil and engine work poorly. If your FSM, Field service Manual, there are resistance measurements published for the primary and secondary coil windings...... If you have never replaced your coil this is a good time to do it or atleast take the resistance measurments. Coil will generate 35,000 to 50,000 volts at the plug gap if working well. The high voltage is why good plugs, plug wires, and premium carb large & brass are needed or this voltage will find the easiest ground it can reach.

I have been using the Ford E coil used from the junk yard and have had great results. I also use a MSD capacitance multspark ignition.... This gives me 3 full energy spark discharges for each cylinder.



Sorry for the long posts.... This is a huge issue for the CJs. IN the next few months I would like to put a few tech articles with more info on this. I learned most of this from JeepHammer and he is a igntion god.
 
Last edited:
MORE IGNITION
After compression ck, add igniton ground & maybe other aux grounds, ck spark plug results.
There is a very good igntion upgrade using TUNE UP PARTS.... this uses a better quality distributor cap and rotar. Uses a adapter for larger diameter and taller distributor CAP with brass contacts. Few buck more but a major upgrade FORD developed and its backward compatible to the CJs of 70s and 80s. Alumium Terminal CAPs are JUNK if you have one and have issues replace it with a brass terminal cap. The larger diameter taller cap cuts down on cross fire, ionization issues, and grounding out the distributor weights and body (another path to ground vs spark plugs). This is a huge HUGE HUGE HUGE>>>> upgrade>>>>> we all need to do this on you next tunes..... This gave me 20% more preformance on a rebuilt long block.... I use the BBD cap and rotar and Oriley has lifetime warranty and good prices. Also like the MSD version but it is a bit more money. Only issue is the UPGRADE CAP uses male terminals and the spark plug wires are going to need changing also. My yields were:
20% more preformance
pep increased 20%
MPG went up about 4mpg, I get 24 mpg with my set up at 60mph
Max RPMs went from 3200 range to 4500 range
Better Starts, smoother idle

Spark plug wires are junk if you buy the ones from the auto stores. They can fail out of the box as well as the sprark plugs. If you drop a spark plug on the ground... throw it out... the carb stack crack and fail if you drop them... could have been mentioned above.... The best wires are the MSD wires they last longer and work better they run about $75 from summit racing. The other wires I use but not as good are the NAPA Belding Dark Navy Blue wires they work well and have lifetime warranty.

The spark energy needs to get to the spark plug gap to the fire. Timing, cap, rotar, plug wires all need to be excellent to get the energy to cylinder.

The next step is overlooked often....

80s Computer CJs have a very Limited mech advance in distributor..
The duraspark distributor is 25 to 35 yrs old and still working. ....its what I have still.... get 24mpg, 80-90 mph speeds, 650 idle speed, strong pulls from 650 - 4500 rpms... it works fine is set up correctly.
The computer control CJ's distributors are a bit different. There are two mech advance slots with limits of 5 and 8 degrees. The PREcomputer versions have two mech advance slots of 13 and 18 degrees. Usually factory has them set on the smaller slots. Swampdawg is (guess) likely set on 5 deg mech advance. This is one of the more advance corrections but the slot can be opened up in width to equal the 13 - 18 slot of the 1970's. This is a huge short comming.

When you remove the Carter BBD Feedback, computer, knock sensor, or O2 sensor or they fail the engine control goes limp and operation suffers.

This can be corrected by
Open the limit slot to the 13-18 deg range
Purchase a Cardon Rebuilt Distributor with the larger slots (need to look) $50 with lifetime warranty
Purchase the MSD Distributor, true upgrade, for the CJ $200 est
Modify the stock distributor with a larger slot.... free

I do not like the HEI distrubtors for the AMC Engines.... many short commings with hard starts, too much advance, advance curves that need to be correct, hardened gears, and many failed AMC engines. I am sure more will be published on the HEIs. I do not like the HEIs on AMC they cause more issues then they solve and the user should be very well read before using.... ONe of the most heated topics on the CJ

COIL ISSUES.......
Coils like to fail and get weak..... When plug wires are pulled, fail, spark energy does not have goood ground, etc, the coil wire spark out internal to coil and over time these short will make the coil and engine work poorly. If your FSM, Field service Manual, there are resistance measurements published for the primary and secondary coil windings...... If you have never replaced your coil this is a good time to do it or atleast take the resistance measurments. Coil will generate 35,000 to 50,000 volts at the plug gap if working well. The high voltage is why good plugs, plug wires, and premium carb large & brass are needed or this voltage will find the easiest ground it can reach.

I have been using the Ford E coil used from the junk yard and have had great results. I also use a MSD capacitance multspark ignition.... This gives me 3 full energy spark discharges for each cylinder.



Sorry for the long posts.... This is a huge issue for the CJs. IN the next few months I would like to put a few tech articles with more info on this. I learned most of this from JeepHammer and he is a igntion god.

This is typically referred to as the TFI (Thick Film Integration) upgrade. It uses stock Ford ignition parts from a Ford 300cid inline 6cyl.

In simplified version:
-Larger cap with brass terms.
-8mm plug wires (replacing the stock 7mm)
-higher output Ford coil (need a pigtail adapter)
-plugs gapped to .045

It's a direct swap for the most part and I highly recommend it when it comes time to do a tune up...basically replacement parts for the weak stock system. I ran the TFI on my AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l and loved it. I run the TFI on my 401 now, using the ignition system from a Ford 460cid engine. Torque, hp, Mileage... are all improved noticeably and substantially.
 

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