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Braking (free falling) backwards

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Braking (free falling) backwards
richardoutwest

richardoutwest

Jeeper
Posts
103
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Location
Southern Arizona
Vehicle(s)
76 CJ5 304 all stock T-150 D20 4.10 gears
Seems like all CJ's (everyone that I know of) has a common problem when braking backwards down steep hills. The front end locks up and you are basically out of control sliding backwards. My drivers seat has several pucker points to prove this! I have had both disc front and drum front and one does not seem any better than the other.

I know about weight distribution but I have also had many 4X4's and none have had the trouble like the CJ's. It would be nice to back down out of trouble without locking up!

Has anyone done or have suggestions or mods that cures the problem?
 
Keep the rear brakes in top shape and adjustment,and use quality brake hoses. The rear one is important in this matter. any give is less braking on the rear, and ends up with more pedal pressure to the front as well.

Everything else is just a matter of weight distribution, like you said.

Beyond a certain angle, your pretty much on "two wheels" weight wise. Front brakes don't matter, if the wheels can't get traction. They "lock" because the tires slide down hill. No weight to dig in.

maybe run a twin stick and dig in with the front wheels. This also helps with sidehill runs, if used correctly. Awkward sometimes with a locked front, though.

Never went up a hill I couldn't use my winch on. The rocky thick woods of the northeast require a lot of "hiking" to scout ahead. Even on the marked trails.

Mini-rockslides, mud, and constantly eroding trails make wheeling a blast here. The trick is finding "legal" places.
 
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4 wheel discs with a properly adjusted proportioning valve will improve brake control like you wouldn't believe.

After going 4 wheel discs I keep mumbling "why did I take so long to do this".

No more " I'm gonna die".
 
As stated, it's all about weight distribution. As you brake the weight goes forward so front brakes are proportioned to give more braking power. With a short wheelbase such as a CJ this is more pronounced. And even more so if the jeep is lifted. If you have an adjustable proportioning valve you can adjust the braking power front to rear. But then if you adjust the brakes so you don't lock up your front as you go backwards down hill then you will easily lock up your rear on the pavement.
The only solution I see is anti-lock brakes.
 
73CJ said:
and how many CJs are running anti-locks????
Click to expand...
None from the factory.
About 15 years ago I heard of after-market anti-lock brakes that would bolt onto the existing brake system. They would release the brakes as they locked up.
I just now did a quick search and didn't find them.
I don't know if anyone sells after-market anti-lock brakes any more. Since they release and pulsate the OEM brakes they may have been pulled from the market. Liability issue.
:dunno:
 
I like the idea of 4 wheel disc, with my 76 thats just it, I have to do all 4. Never seen an adjustable proportioning valve, will have to do some searching, it may be worth playing around with?

My brakes are in top condition with all new everything, master cylinder, brake cylinders, lines, shoes, everything, hardware and even steel breaded lines.

Thanks for the input guys!
 
I think the short answer is keep you back brakes in good shape and well adjusted and an adjustable proportioning valve.
 
I have been thinking of a hand break (emergency) in place of the foot break (emergency) to apply the rear breaks and feather the fronts. It may sound stupid but when I am backing down a hill I usually have it in gear with the clutch depressed and working the breaks, sort of hard to work the foot emergency with out a third leg. I have no problem working the gas and the break with my right foot, just too big of stretch for the clutch and emergency break.

Maybe I'm screwed up in my thinking?
 
richardoutwest said:
I have been thinking of a hand break (emergency) in place of the foot break (emergency) to apply the rear breaks and feather the fronts. It may sound stupid but when I am backing down a hill I usually have it in gear with the clutch depressed and working the breaks, sort of hard to work the foot emergency with out a third leg. I have no problem working the gas and the break with my right foot, just too big of stretch for the clutch and emergency break.

Maybe I'm screwed up in my thinking?
Click to expand...
No, you're not, that would work great if you adapt a hand break lever from say, a fork truck.
 
Coming down backwards is at best a compromise anytime and not one manner is correct for anyone circumstance. If your up the hill quite a ways and can safely stop, I have someone pull out the cable. If its not to far back down and have a Manual Transmission I'm in reverse and back down under compression with minimum braking, We all know once the front wheels are locked there is "No" real control.
I still like the old Drum E-brake on the Transfer Case , it allows for some reasonable hand braking.
 
tarry99 said:
Coming down backwards is at best a compromise anytime and not one manner is correct for anyone circumstance. If your up the hill quite a ways and can safely stop, I have someone pull out the cable. If its not to far back down and have a Manual Transmission I'm in reverse and back down under compression with minimum braking, We all know once the front wheels are locked there is "No" real control.
I still like the old Drum E-brake on the Transfer Case , it allows for some reasonable hand braking.
Click to expand...

It sounds like problem he's having won't allow him to stop for pulling out the cable or shifting into reverse.:(
 
We have a bunch of shale rock on boulders or just dry loose dirt on a hard surface. In the desert, it can be hard to find something to hook a cable around, cacti just isn't gonna cut it. Many will carry 3/4 inch round stock with a loop and a sledge hammer and drive it into the ground, hook the winch up to it and get out, then drive off and leave it for the next guy.

I also liked the e-brake on the Transfer Case Tarry, looking for something to do the similar.

Ken, havent been to Alaska in a while, lived up there from 84 till 87. Remember the cold winters well, hope ya got a hard top on those CJ5 "s!
 
Richard, regarding that hand operated e-brake, I did mention about it in an earlier post. The best one I saw on a CJ was a unit from an old volkswagen mounted between the seats. The M38A1s had a version of a hand brake also. Its tough when you stall on a steep hill and have to get your big foot down on that little pedal with a roll bar in the way.
 
richardoutwest said:
I have been thinking of a hand break (emergency) in place of the foot break (emergency) to apply the rear breaks and feather the fronts. It may sound stupid but when I am backing down a hill I usually have it in gear with the clutch depressed and working the breaks, sort of hard to work the foot emergency with out a third leg. I have no problem working the gas and the break with my right foot, just too big of stretch for the clutch and emergency break.

Maybe I'm screwed up in my thinking?
Click to expand...

It is always best to go back down in reverse gear and use as much engine breaking as possible the clutch should never be used for descents

If you get part way up a hill and need to back back down a stall start is the best technique ie brake uphill until engine stalls and then with engine stalled but no clutch change to reverse bump it over on key in reverse gear and drive back down

using hand brake is good but be careful as too much will cause the rears to lock often meaning front will come down faster putting you on a angle across the track and roll over often follows closely behind

BTW many Australian delivered CJ's had hand brake not foot emergency brake :) they still dont work well
 
Regarding a hand E-brake: Good idea but is the assumption e-brake + service brake force are additive? I'm in agreement that it probably is but are we sure? If not then it's useless.

Hand throttle sounds nifty too. Yes I just said nifty. :D
 
I took that very ride last weekend. Grey, wet clay in a spill bank. I know the LF brake is touchy but I think my ride had a lot to do with a short wheel base and gravity. Once i lost traction it felt almost like a semi jackknifing, the engine was going to swap ends and i was along for the ride. About half way down i got it to the point i could point the nose downhill and drove off. It did feel kind of funny watching the front end pass me on the way to the bottom.
 
1969 CJ5 said:
I took that very ride last weekend. Grey, wet clay in a spill bank. I know the LF brake is touchy but I think my ride had a lot to do with a short wheel base and gravity. Once i lost traction it felt almost like a semi jackknifing, the engine was going to swap ends and i was along for the ride. About half way down i got it to the point i could point the nose downhill and drove off. It did feel kind of funny watching the front end pass me on the way to the bottom.
Click to expand...

:)Welcome aboard............can get hairy sometimes.......lucky it was muddy, had there been a dry spot or rock it could have caught a tire an over she would have went.
Good to hear you are all right!
:D:D:D:D
 
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