Common 4X4 myths

[AussieCJ7]

Here is a few more I will throw out the topic then give my view

Myth # 3: SOA alone gives more articulation

Myth # 4 lower tyre pressure make they tyre foot print wider

 

[BajaEdition]

Airing down has been well documented to give you a Bigger Footprint, maybe not much wider but it is bigger forward to rear, and that is not it's only benefit, it also smooths out the ride and gives the tire the ability to get a better grip. letting the tire envelope an obstacle like a hand.
Airing down is not a myth, it is a tool.

 

[BajaEdition]

It is my opinion that having a supple suspension that always tries to keep all four tires on the ground is the best situation for low speed off-roading. If you don't have lockers front and rear then I think it is much more important to have good articulation.

I have to disagree with this. Controled articulation is better than max articulation, and that goes from watching a lot of buggies go FLippity Flop
there is a limit to how far you want an axle to drop, and it is better sometimes to have a wheel in the air. Come up to the Hammers with us sometimes and you can see that.

 

[CJim7]

Here is a few more I will throw out the topic then give my view

Myth # 3: SOA alone gives more articulation

This is very broad. On one hand, the higher stance can offer better articulation by the mere fact the tires can travel better. On the other hand, there is truth to SOA offering better arcticulation because of the dynamics of the mounting position of the springs over the axle. In an SUA design, the spring plate on the axle inhibits articulation of the spring pack. In an SOA design, the axle is no longer inhibitive to the arching of the spring pack

Myth # 4 lower tyre pressure make they tyre foot print wider

Technically....correct. Where the lower tire (tyre ) pressure creates a larger footprint is in the rock crawling world where the tire flexes over a rock...picture a snake traveling over a rock and how it contours it with it's body.
Also, lower tire pressure creates the larger footprint front to back

 

[IOPort51]

If this is true and there is any significant restriction to the spring by the spring plate, there would be an advantage to eliminating the plate by turning the U bolts 90 degrees with the threads up. this would gain the same articulation with out the SOA.


"This is very broad. On one hand, the higher stance can offer better articulation by the mere fact the tires can travel better. On the other hand, there is truth to SOA offering better arcticulation because of the dynamics of the mounting position of the springs over the axle. In an SUA design, the spring plate on the axle inhibits articulation of the spring pack. In an SOA design, the axle is no longer inhibitive to the arching of the spring pack"

​

 

[CJim7]

If this is true and there is any significant restriction to the spring by the spring plate, there would be an advantage to eliminating the plate by turning the U bolts 90 degrees with the threads up. this would gain the same articulation with out the SOA.
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hmmm..Let me elaborate. The spring PADS that are part of the axle itself...that's what I was eluding to. Over the springs, they use themselves to inhibit the flex of the springs....under the springs, more droop is created because the axle is no longer a factor in flex inhibition. On the flipside of this, the axle now tends to be inhibited in it's upward travel because now the springpad is working against the flex of the spring.
In an SUA configuration, the springpad works against downward travel, and WITH upward travel.

 

[BajaEdition]

If your sprind is inhibited by that pad, then you are getting spring wrap not flex
might I point out that with a flat spring vehicle the flexing of the spring is on a constant arc and that it could not happen with out a shackle on one end
as the spring flattens or curves more that shackle moves allowing the articulation, should the spring be flexing on an uneven arc, that is a bad thing, it causes what is known as axle wrap.
that spring pad if on top or bottom has very little effect on the arc of the spring overall.
that shackle has more effect on the spring then the pad placement

 

[CJim7]

If your sprind is inhibited by that pad, then you are getting spring wrap not flex
might I point out that with a flat spring vehicle the flexing of the spring is on a constant arc and that it could not happen with out a shackle on one end
as the spring flattens or curves more that shackle moves allowing the articulation, should the spring be flexing on an uneven arc, that is a bad thing, it causes what is known as axle wrap.
that spring pad if on top or bottom has very little effect on the arc of the spring overall.
that shackle has more effect on the spring then the pad placement

Axle wrap is very prevalent in SOA rigs...precisely because of that change in axle location in relation to the spring. And the location of the springpad plays a huge role in this. It's why antiwrap spring perches are built differently...
to better support the uninhibited spring of an SOA configuration .

An SOA rig built from an SUA rig, using the same springs, has no difference in shackle angle and yet, it will experience axle wrap.

I've seen it on several rigs we've built and utilized a few different methods to stop it.

 

[CJim7]

Remember. The springpads are wider front to back then the diameter of the tube. When bending a spring against it, it will resist more then bending the springs away from it (downward travel, SUA vs SOA). Ubolts dont make a difference in this scenario. It's physics. And it's only the weight of the axle causing the droop, but in an SOA set up, the springs wear out very quickly because of the uninhibited downward movement of the axle and the propensity for axle wrap because of less support on the density of the spring at the point it contacts the axle. Instead of the axle pulling against the springs, it is now pushing against it during upward travel. Something we've looked at and pondered as part of the spring fatigue that is experienced.

 

[BajaEdition]

the reason the axle wrap is significant on SOA conversions again is not because of the pad, it is the placement of the shorter springs, they are now between the pad and the main spring and they will act now as not helper springs but a spring straighteners, so the part of the spring is not double has the stress on it not the entire thing.
that is the cause of axle wrap in SOA conversions, they are using spring packs designed for SUA. Another common problem with SOA is they do not reclock the axles and the drive shaft angles are screwed to hell and back. over half of the conversions I see no one know squat about the geometry that a drive shaft works under.
SOA is not a well thought out Idea in my opinion, to most guys it is a cheap lift and ends up being a problem. I see very few that address all of the issues. And I have never seen a set of springs designed for it.

 

[CJ007]

Axle wrap is very prevalent in SOA rigs...precisely because of that change in axle location in relation to the spring. And the location of the springpad plays a huge role in this. It's why antiwrap spring perches are built differently...
to better support the uninhibited spring of an SOA configuration .

An SOA rig built from an SUA rig, using the same springs, has no difference in shackle angle and yet, it will experience axle wrap.

I've seen it on several rigs we've built and utilized a few different methods to stop it.

I must have been really hard on my rig, I experienced spring wrap when I was still spring under. Wait, yea I was pretty hard on it.

I didn't even take a chance when I went SOA. I didn't want heavy duty springs that would limit flex, so I built a ladder/traction bar. It has proven to be a good decision for the way I wheel. And only cost me about $70 in parts

 

[BajaEdition]

the best system I have eve seen to prevent axle wrap is the Nth Degree stinger system

it is like a centered traction bar, but it mounts to the diff and the trasfercase skid plate, it triangulates the axle so it cannot wrap at all and being centered it does not affect the articulation

 

[CJim7]

the reason the axle wrap is significant on SOA conversions again is not because of the pad, it is the placement of the shorter springs, they are now between the pad and the main spring and they will act now as not helper springs but a spring straighteners, so the part of the spring is not double has the stress on it not the entire thing.
that is the cause of axle wrap in SOA conversions, they are using spring packs designed for SUA. Another common problem with SOA is they do not reclock the axles and the drive shaft angles are screwed to hell and back. over half of the conversions I see no one know squat about the geometry that a drive shaft works under.
SOA is not a well thought out Idea in my opinion, to most guys it is a cheap lift and ends up being a problem. I see very few that address all of the issues. And I have never seen a set of springs designed for it.

spring straighteners Only during upward travel of an SOA setup. As I pointed out, upward travel is harder on SOA'd springs then downward travel....because nothing is inhibiting downward travel and this is direct correlation to the spring pads also
On an SUA, the downward travel is usually hampered. Why? because the axle/pad itself creates an obstacle the springs must wrap themselves around...not so in SOA...it's only the Ubolts

And I agree with you. Most SOA's are improperly built and dont take axle wrap into consideration...or pinion angle for that matter. It takes extra work to make stock springs survive when put into that position...antiwrap devices or the use of better springs.
Edit: Correct, stress is transferred to a single spring during downward movement....it is the same with the axle on top unless the spring clips are all in place. It doesnt make a difference then.

Alcan has very good springs for SOA conversions. Very expensive also. We've used them several times in SOA builds.

 

[BajaEdition]

there you go then
it is not the pad
I would love to see a spring designed for SOA, but I think it would not be a multipac but a spring with a thickness variances. that and a system like the Nth stinger system and you would get good results, but then if a spring like that, why SOA?

 

[CJim7]

the best system I have eve seen to prevent axle wrap is the Nth Degree stinger system

it is like a centered traction bar, but it mounts to the diff and the trasfercase skid plate, it triangulates the axle so it cannot wrap at all and being centered it does not affect the articulation

we've installed a few of those. Great product.

 

[BajaEdition]

I love it, I am about to modify one to fit a CJ6

it is a shame he went out of business, he had some of the most thought out ideas of any company. Most lift companies make products that are good enough, he designed things to work all the time.

I solved a lot of TJ problems on friend Jeeps by using his trackbar tower and stuff. I even run his short arm Jyro Joint system on my TJ and out flexed a lot of long arm TJs with out having the drawbacks of a Long arm lift on my Jeep

But AEV still sells a lot of the product line so maybe there is hope he may design stuff for them.

 

[CJim7]

there you go then
it is not the pad

It is the whole mass of axle and pad. The difference being it is wedged in between the curve of the intended movement on one settup....and on the outside of the curve of the intended movement on the other settup. physics, once again.

Anyways, Im just getting back to the original myth of SOA articulation over SUA...and the reason it does.

I think we got our wires crossed as to axle droop vs spring wrap causes. And it does all tie together. Always a healthy debate with you Jim

 

[BajaEdition]

Just two side of the same answer I guess

bet we had an audience:lpopcorn::lpopcorn::lpopcorn::lpopcorn:

 

[CJim7]

I love it, I am about to modify one to fit a CJ6

it is a shame he went out of business, he had some of the most thought out ideas of any company. Most lift companies make products that are good enough, he designed things to work all the time.

I solved a lot of TJ problems on friend Jeeps by using his trackbar tower and stuff. I even run his short arm Jyro Joint system on my TJ and out flexed a lot of long arm TJs with out having the drawbacks of a Long arm lift on my Jeep

But AEV still sells a lot of the product line so maybe there is hope he may design stuff for them.

I hope that's the case, 9th* stuff was innovative. Dave at AEV would pair up very well with him.

On that note, im getting ready to design my own antiwrap bar for my CJ along with my 60's project....Im using the 9th* degree design. It should work well with my flat skidplate and lack of a gas tank

 

[CJim7]

Just two side of the same answer I guess

bet we had an audience:lpopcorn::lpopcorn::lpopcorn::lpopcorn:

Lol...good There was some good information thrown out there that hopefully anyone considering SOA will take seriously.