Difficulty steering an electric CJ-5...

[tewasch]

I'm looking for some suggestions....

I have a 1981 CJ5 that I'm converting to all-electric. The conversion was to use a bell-housing adapter such that I mounted an AC electric motor & adapter plate to the original bell-housing. I kept the Transmission (SR4 ) and Transfer Case , etc.

I have a split battery pack with half in the back (where the gas tank was--211 lbs) and half in front (where the radiator/fan was--237 lbs). It has been quite a project and I'm getting down to the end.

The problem is the steering. When lifted up, I can turn the wheel back and forth easily in both directions. Its a little easier without the steering dampener shock. When driving, it is difficult to start a turn (somewhat the case when going from straight to making a turn and REALLY the case when in a turn and trying to turn back to straight).

My caster angle is 6-degrees (just what my manual says it should be).

I have manual steering and manual brakes. I have (new) stock leaf springs, shackles, shocks. I have new steering box and tie-rod ends. Stock tires. My pitman arm is straight with only a 2.5 degree slope in the connecting rod (about a 1 inch max. vertical difference between the connecting rod and the tie rod at the pitman arm). I can't wiggle the ball joints up and down at all (there is no motion in the ball joints) but they are old and have no grease fittings.

The previous owner of the Jeep had lifted it 6" and had huge tires on it. I cut all this off. I suspect he beat it up pretty bad.

I believe the overall vehicle weight is very similar. I know that my front/back weight distribution is perfect. One thought is that the front battery pack center-line is right on top of the front axel whereas the original gas engine center of mass would have been back a bit farther.

I have not done a front-end alignment yet (I took it in to a guy before I changed-out the leaf springs to return to a stock suspension, he charged me $185 and said he really couldn't do much until I fixed the ride height--which is now fixed). However, I'm gun-shy about spending another $185 with what might be such an obvious problem elsewhere.

Anyway...long story...I'm looking for experience and suggestions for others of things to check into before taking it in for the front end alignment. Thanks, all, for any advice. Tom.

p.s. I have a near-twin gas powered CJ5 that I use for comparison. Unfortunately, this one has power steering/brakes. This one steers perfectly.

 

[tarry99]

I'm looking for some suggestions....

I have a 1981 CJ5 that I'm converting to all-electric. The conversion was to use a bell-housing adapter such that I mounted an AC electric motor & adapter plate to the original bell-housing. I kept the Transmission (SR4 ) and Transfer Case , etc.

I have a split battery pack with half in the back (where the gas tank was--211 lbs) and half in front (where the radiator/fan was--237 lbs). It has been quite a project and I'm getting down to the end.

The problem is the steering. When lifted up, I can turn the wheel back and forth easily in both directions. Its a little easier without the steering dampener shock. When driving, it is difficult to start a turn (somewhat the case when going from straight to making a turn and REALLY the case when in a turn and trying to turn back to straight).

My caster angle is 6-degrees (just what my manual says it should be).

I have manual steering and manual brakes. I have (new) stock leaf springs, shackles, shocks. I have new steering box and tie-rod ends. Stock tires. My pitman arm is straight with only a 2.5 degree slope in the connecting rod (about a 1 inch max. vertical difference between the connecting rod and the tie rod at the pitman arm). I can't wiggle the ball joints up and down at all (there is no motion in the ball joints) but they are old and have no grease fittings.

The previous owner of the Jeep had lifted it 6" and had huge tires on it. I cut all this off. I suspect he beat it up pretty bad.

I believe the overall vehicle weight is very similar. I know that my front/back weight distribution is perfect. One thought is that the front battery pack center-line is right on top of the front axel whereas the original gas engine center of mass would have been back a bit farther.

I have not done a front-end alignment yet (I took it in to a guy before I changed-out the leaf springs to return to a stock suspension, he charged me $185 and said he really couldn't do much until I fixed the ride height--which is now fixed). However, I'm gun-shy about spending another $185 with what might be such an obvious problem elsewhere.

Anyway...long story...I'm looking for experience and suggestions for others of things to check into before taking it in for the front end alignment. Thanks, all, for any advice. Tom.

p.s. I have a near-twin gas powered CJ5 that I use for comparison. Unfortunately, this one has power steering/brakes. This one steers perfectly.

Tewasch:

Will your first Problem is living in California and emulating the Green posture that has Bankrupted the State(LOL).........Now I'm just giving you a bad time nothing personal I also live in Kallyfornya............... and I do applaud you for taking on such a project!

You mentioned you tore out a bunch of stuff after the 6 in lift? I would Imagine for that Jeep to have a 6 in lift it may have been a spring over axle suspension and may have had high steer knuckles along with the tie rod moved up. In either case what have you done other than put new stock springs in to correct any or all of the previous changes?

It seems that unloaded the steering can function............but as soon as you load it... it gets bound up.............so take some visuals or pictures while its unloaded and some while loaded and I'll bet you will see where the binding problem is. This should also be done in progression as you are letting the Jeep down from being suspended to the point of binding.............

 

[tewasch]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yep, California's a weird place, but I've been here so long that weird becomes the new normal

A previous 6" lift might be an exaggeration. Maybe 4"-5". He had huge shackles and leaf spring brackets that welded over-top of the stock ones under the frame. I had to re-weld perches onto the back axel to fix the pinion angle. He had non-stock leaf springs such that the ride height (even with the shackles removed) was 2" high in the front. That is now all fixed--back to stock.

I agree with the thought that the issue is the load. Maybe this eliminates some possible issues.

Interestingly, I mounted my son's GoPro video camera upside down monitoring the steering while I took a drive (I honked the horn when I experienced the issue). I could see all the linkages beautifully in HD. I really didn't learn anything. I might have been able to see a little flex in the connecting rod and a little overall parallel sway in the springs when trying to straighten out from a turn, but it wasn't the source of any binding (it was more a symptom).

Would adjusting the slop in the steering wheel by tightening the adjusting screw on top of the steering box have load-related issues?

Is there something inside the knuckle that could bind (ie. from lack of lubrication)?

Still, I have not had a front-end alignment done (I aligned it by eye after restoring the Jeep). Could I be that far off??? Maybe its time to have it done.

Thanks again. Tom.

 

[tarry99]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yep, California's a weird place, but I've been here so long that weird becomes the new normal

A previous 6" lift might be an exaggeration. Maybe 4"-5". He had huge shackles and leaf spring brackets that welded over-top of the stock ones under the frame. I had to re-weld perches onto the back axel to fix the pinion angle. He had non-stock leaf springs such that the ride height (even with the shackles removed) was 2" high in the front. That is now all fixed--back to stock.

I agree with the thought that the issue is the load. Maybe this eliminates some possible issues.

Interestingly, I mounted my son's GoPro video camera upside down monitoring the steering while I took a drive (I honked the horn when I experienced the issue). I could see all the linkages beautifully in HD. I really didn't learn anything. I might have been able to see a little flex in the connecting rod and a little overall parallel sway in the springs when trying to straighten out from a turn, but it wasn't the source of any binding (it was more a symptom).

Would adjusting the slop in the steering wheel by tightening the adjusting screw on top of the steering box have load-related issues?

Is there something inside the knuckle that could bind (ie. from lack of lubrication)?

Still, I have not had a front-end alignment done (I aligned it by eye after restoring the Jeep). Could I be that far off??? Maybe its time to have it done.

Thanks again. Tom.

Tom,
As far as the adjusting screw is concerned it is just an adjustment to pre load the two gears inside and has minimal effect............will it take up some clearance if the two gears are shot ...........Yes, but in your case it steers fine while suspended and not when there is load applied................
The steering knuckles are attached to the ball joints and should have grease fittings attached. The tie rod ends also should have a point for grease........... But I've seen Jeeps laying in rust for years that you could still get the steering components to move with a little effort.
As far as alignment most is built in either at the spindle or the axle pads on the springs.................toe in or toe out you should be able to get a measurement on that with a tape measure .............should be a about 1/16-1/8 inch toe in.
I again would suspended the Jeep to the point where everything is moving and at this point you should go to each joint and make sure its free. Then as you drop it down off of a floor jack slowly............keep checking each movable point and see if you can find something that is starting to bind up?

 

[tewasch]

As I incrementally drop the jack, the steering stays the same (as you'd expect) until the wheels start to touch the ground. At this point, there is friction from the tires hitting the ground and it becomes more difficult; however, the difficulty is quite uniform. It still consistently turns fully left and fully right albiet with a bit more overall friction.

This is not the sensation I get when driving. When driving, the wheel will "stick" at center (somewhat) or at a turn (significantly) and fight me as I try to turn. There is something dynamic about the action--by that, I mean the inertia of the car heading in one direction and trying to change or of the wheels already rolling. Hmmmmmm.

Thanks again.... Tom

 

[tarry99]

As I incrementally drop the jack, the steering stays the same (as you'd expect) until the wheels start to touch the ground. At this point, there is friction from the tires hitting the ground and it becomes more difficult; however, the difficulty is quite uniform. It still consistently turns fully left and fully right albiet with a bit more overall friction.

This is not the sensation I get when driving. When driving, the wheel will "stick" at center (somewhat) or at a turn (significantly) and fight me as I try to turn. There is something dynamic about the action--by that, I mean the inertia of the car heading in one direction and trying to change or of the wheels already rolling. Hmmmmmm.

Tom,

Did you run a tape measure front and back of the tires to check your toe in?

And your ball joints have you taken a bar ( a large bar) and wedge it in there between the spindle and joint to see if perhaps you have some negative or positive camber? That can be done while jacked up.
I believe you said earlier that you had 6 degrees of caster so that should be fine.
It sounds like you have an extreme case of out of alignment and although toe in would give your tires some headache I would bet its your Camber that's out but then again I'm here an your there.

 

[73CJ]

Pictures please

 

[IOPort51]

Are the hubs locked? do you have the differential welded? is the Transfer Case in gauged??

this sounds like what happens when driving with a locker in the front axle.

 

[tewasch]

I'll work on getting pictures of the geometry tomorrow. Here are some measurements....

The toe-in is 5/16" measured from the same spot in the center of the tire tread on the front and rear facing side of the tire when not on a jack (ie. under normal load).

The camber is 1.5-2 degrees positive (toe-in) measured with an angle indicator mounted vertically to the smooth disk brake plate surface. This was done on jack stands. (I think the wheel might flex outward a little bit when it was under load?). It was the same on both sides of the Jeep. I think CJs are supposed to be 0 degrees...how big of a deal can this be?

(p.s. The hubs are not locked and the Transfer Case is not engaged.)

Thanks, again, for your thoughts. Tom.

 

[mtnwhlr]

I'm starting to think you just have a bad steering box.

 

[IOPort51]

just one more thought, check the front axle U-joints? they can effect the steering if they are in need of lubrication.

 

[tewasch]

Hmmm. Interesting. I replaced the one I received when I bought the jeep with a replacement part. When I installed it, I adjusted the screw to tighten up the play in the steering wheel. Maybe its too tight? Could that cause this? I replaced the first one because of this oversteering issue. It didn't help. I still have the old one and could reinstall it if needed.

Thanks for the thoughts.... Tom.

 

[tarry99]

Hmmm. Interesting. I replaced the one I received when I bought the jeep with a replacement part. When I installed it, I adjusted the screw to tighten up the play in the steering wheel. Maybe its too tight? Could that cause this? I replaced the first one because of this oversteering issue. It didn't help. I still have the old one and could reinstall it if needed.

Thanks for the thoughts.... Tom.

Tom

Since you have now mentioned that you have already changed the steering gear once and tried adjusting it ( If you cranked down hard on that adjusting screw and over-loaded the gears I would re-adjust that before that gear box gets damaged.)...........then perhaps the real problems still exists in the steering joints , linkage, angles or geometry.........Looseness in the steering wheel can be a host of problems that again just get magnified as the action continues downstream to the tires.

 

[kryptonitecj8]

Hmmm. Interesting. I replaced the one I received when I bought the jeep with a replacement part. When I installed it, I adjusted the screw to tighten up the play in the steering wheel. Maybe its too tight? Could that cause this? I replaced the first one because of this oversteering issue. It didn't help. I still have the old one and could reinstall it if needed.

Thanks for the thoughts.... Tom.

Tightening the screw on top of the steering gear box Will cause tight steering . I've done it before.

 

[tewasch]

Here are some photos of the current setup. I had a chance to look at some old photos from the day I bought the original car. It had no drop pitman arm (same one I have today) and probably a 7" vertical difference between the two ends of the connecting rod... Boy, that must have been tough to steer. He said he only used it for off-road.

Anyway, here are some photos. I'm going to try to loosen the adjustment screw on the steering box just to see what impact that has.

Thanks, again, for everyone's experience and suggestions. Tom.

 

[tewasch]

I finally was able to get the CJ to an alignment shop. It ends up my laser-level, angle indicator and tape measure alignment was pretty good. Nothing to explain the issue.

HOWEVER, when I got home, I disconnected my tie-rod ends and found that the right wheel turning motion was definitely sticky and binding compared to my left. It was night and day. SO, I think I have a ball joint issue. (I think one of the guys who commented on the post said this much earlier)

I've never changed ball joints and I'm wondering if it is something I can take on myself. I understand you need a special press to push them in? Can these be rented? The shop near me here wants $1000 to do the job. Anyone have any links to write-ups or videos of this?

Thanks, everyone. I think I'm close. Tom.

 

[tewasch]

I little more detail....

I looked at the motion of the knuckle turning a little more carefully. On the left side (good side), the motion is smooth thru the entire range and there is no motion on the inside driveshaft.

On the right side, as I push to turn the knuckle, the inside driveshaft attempts to turn a little (hubs are unlocked and I can spin the tire with no motion of the internal driveshaft). This attempt to spin a little occurs at the zero (straight forward) position of the knuckle only. The actual u-joint in there spins maybe 5 degrees and then stops (like some kind of backlash in the u-joint?). If I push the knuckle back the other way, it spins the same 5 degrees back the other way and stops spinning.

I have no slop or motion in the ball joints.

Still, at any starting angle of the knuckle, I can push left/right on the knuckle and get clear hesitation (binding) back and forth after a very small amount of turn whereas on the good side I can push it back and forth easily.

Thoughts to check? What other things should be changed/replaced while I'm in here? Thanks. Tom.

 

[Tinman22]

My old Dana 30 kinda did the same thing . As a previous poster said maybe ujoints. Mine were bad and binding . When looking at the joint from the side as though through the wheel assembly ,if it were positioned like an (x) it would bind turned in a position of a cross (+) it turned just fine ,it was bad enough with power steering probably much worse with manual.

 

[tarry99]

I little more detail....

I looked at the motion of the knuckle turning a little more carefully. On the left side (good side), the motion is smooth thru the entire range and there is no motion on the inside driveshaft.

On the right side, as I push to turn the knuckle, the inside driveshaft attempts to turn a little (hubs are unlocked and I can spin the tire with no motion of the internal driveshaft). This attempt to spin a little occurs at the zero (straight forward) position of the knuckle only. The actual u-joint in there spins maybe 5 degrees and then stops (like some kind of backlash in the u-joint?). If I push the knuckle back the other way, it spins the same 5 degrees back the other way and stops spinning.

I have no slop or motion in the ball joints.



Still, at any starting angle of the knuckle, I can push left/right on the knuckle and get clear hesitation (binding) back and forth after a very small amount of turn whereas on the good side I can push it back and forth easily.

Thoughts to check? What other things should be changed/replaced while I'm in here? Thanks. Tom.

On the side you suspect the problem pull the axle and check the universals........Could be a frozen U-Joint.
Just a process of elimination.............

 

[tewasch]

Well, we found it.

The ball joints look fine. The problem is the universal joints in the front drive shafts. The one on the right spins a little in one axis and is completely locked on the other. The one on the left is better, but still not smooth.

Once the drive shafts were out, I could push the knuckles back and forth smoothly on both sides.

Thank God.

...and thanks for your collective help. I'll let you know how it goes.

Tom.