Electric fans and alternaters

[IOPort51]

First things first, HAPPY NEW YEAR everybody!!
I went to the pull your part grave yard yesterday. My kid brother came down from the country we sent the girls off to "shop" and made a day of it. wasn't really looking for anything special but I had not been in a few months and there is this huge new crop of "cash for clunker" parts.
As an added bonus I found , when we arrived, it was a half price day! I guess this only happens once or twice a year.
I picked up a Taurus electric fan, an SI 12 GM alternator that I am hoping id a 95 amp and four relays that I am hoping are at least 40 amp with water resistant sockets and 10 gauge wiring. All this for $45. not bad for impulse buying.
Now for the questions these parts have raised, The fan is three wire color coded as solid black, black with green stripe and black with red stripe, the black with red stripe has a "splice" just up stream from the connector that is heat shrink wrapped that may be a fuse link(?). I would think that the motor would have a common and a high and low. When I apply power to pairs of wires the speed is different but any combination of wire to power and ground runs the motor common/ high, common /low and high / low. The question is which wire is which?? I am not reading an appreciable resistance difference between pairs. If I was to guess I would say black was common , black with green was low and black with red was high. Does any body have access to a ford schematic that would confirm this?? I am not really planning on using the two speed on the CJ, but it may not be a good Idea to wire high to low, for any length of time. I am thinking I would like to do this to the J-10 some lace down the road and use high for the A/C.
Question two; The alternator I bought has two wires on the plug and one to the battery. I removed it from a early 90's caddy, there were also SI12's that had one wire and the power wire. I know that one of these wires comes from ignition but what is the other? I have been looking for a site for alternator wiring unsuccessfully, If you have one It would be appreciated.

 

[BrockGrimes]

Got ya covered.
Stand by.

Ok check out the first post right here:
http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f49/useful-info-thought-id-share-665/

There are a few other further down.

But the wire your refering to if i'm not mistaken is the sense.
Basically it tells the alternator the demands on the system.

When I had alt questions and did the research in the past:
http://cjoffroad.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17954&SearchTerms=alternator
Has good wiring info.

Not a bad site and has a wiring diagram for 12si:
http://www.novaresource.org/alternator.htm

 

[IOPort51]

your "useful info " thread Rocks and has been a lot of help. The discussions on the Taurus fan do an excelant job of showing a proper relay circuit but don't mention the designation of the fan wiring itself.
thanks for the alternator link.

 

[BrockGrimes]

Well an easy way to check the fan wiring is,
The way I did, put the black one on the battery neg. then
one of the others on the positive. Just make sure your
clear of all moving parts.

I forget which is which, but you'll know once it spools up, LOL.

I do like the ford contour fans better however, better radiator coverage,
and dual fans. I however wired my taurus fan with low and high to kick on
as temp's demand, and wired a water crossing cut off switch with an idiot light.
Just make sure you wire it with quality wire, fuseable links/auto reset fuses, relays, etc. don't need a firery jeep display.

 

[IOPort51]

fox alpha on the wiring. some things you just have to put extra effort into.
The fan wire would be straight forward but if the two wires that we would like to think on as high and low are put on the terminals the motor runs and it may even fun at a still higher speed. I find it hard to tell, do you use a diode across the fan to cover the wind charging?
Next development; the sI12 alternator has turned out to be a CS144, I am embarrassed.
This, of course is a bit different situation, it has a four terminal plug with one or two of the terminals being used. I think the primary wire just goes to ignition and possibly an idiot lite if I so choose. I still have a lot to learn about alternators, which one is which , for starters.

 

[BrockGrimes]

My caddy alt was a CS144, I used a chevy universal alt braket to install it in my jeep.

 

[rushpowersystems]

First up go to autozone.com create a free account and enter the info on the Ford. In the service and repair section you will find wiring diagrams. Having said that, you will have one wire that will show a reading between it and the other two wires, its just a diode and resistor that changes the speed. The higher the resistance the slower the speed. If you want one speed cap the wire with the highest resistance.

Now on the alternator, slow down, there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. You need to understand a few things, first CS144 units have problems with rear bearings, it is too small and I have never seen a junk yard alternator with a good rear bearing. turn it by hand slowly feel and listen to the rear and you will see what I am talking about. So I would recommend you take it to a local rebuilder and have them put in new bearings and brushes, or do it your self if you have access to a press and an air compressor, we sale the kit to rebuild the unit for $25.00 and you will not need to do any soldering on the 144.

Next you are going from a 60 amp to a 120 amp you need a larger cable to the battery. Over tax the wiring and you will be rewiring it. As you can see the 144 is larger than the SI but the mounting foot is the same if your Jeep had a stock SI. Just drop it in and slightly bend the upper bracket, you may need a larger belt to clear the head.

Now wiring, the best feature of the CS unit is its ability to act as a one wire unit, if the wiring fails it will work as a one wire in “limp home mode” however that is not intended to be a long term fix, just to get you home, it will fail. There are lost of ways to hook them up and many different voltage requirements at pin terminals, hook it up wrong and you will damage the regulator. You must know which regulator you have. So you can have the rebuild shop tell you how to hook it up, go back to the yard and get the year make and model of the Caddy, or you can send me the number stamped or lazar etched into the drive end of the alternator and I can tell you how to hook it up.

The CS units are fantastic alternators, hell we build them to 250 amp and they will take lots of abuse, when they are set up correctly, and that is the key.

 

[IOPort51]

thanks for jumping in Rush.
I have hit a snag, I can't remove the pulley. The nut came off easy enough with the impact but I have not managed to remove the pulley. It appears to have a split collar between the shaft and the pulley. is there a trick to this, will I need to know a secret hand shake or anything?? all I can find on line is "remove the pulley" and "I removed the pulley".:dunno:

I am assuming the stamped /etched numbers are under the fan as nothing is obviously visible on the front end.

 

[rushpowersystems]

Uh oh, you got that bad idea from GM. Soak it in wd-40, heat it with a torch, use a puller and a huge hammer. You are going to destroy the pulley but you don’t need it anyway. The fact that you have that pulley tells me you have a unit that has never had the front pulley replaced probably went through the cheap part house rebuild system. So you are going to want to replace both bearings, or you will be doing this again in 6 months.

You should see the number on the front of the housing, it is not under the fan, you should see it near the mounting foot (wider mount). You may need to do a really good cleaning so see it.

 

[IOPort51]

Uh oh, you got that bad idea from GM. Soak it in wd-40, heat it with a torch, use a puller and a huge hammer. You are going to destroy the pulley but you don’t need it anyway. The fact that you have that pulley tells me you have a unit that has never had the front pulley replaced probably went through the cheap part house rebuild system. So you are going to want to replace both bearings, or you will be doing this again in 6 months.

You should see the number on the front of the housing, it is not under the fan, you should see it near the mounting foot (wider mount). You may need to do a really good cleaning so see it.

I'm glad to know it wasn't just me, but I was kind of hoping for a secret hand shake. This is the best $20 I have spent in a while, hours and hours of entertainment.
so I can remove the pulley with a die grinder and it isn't a loss, cool.
question; if this is the original pulley, why would you think it is a rebuilt??

The numbers on the case are; 10480008 140A 3053 12V neg.
I understand the 140 A and the 12V neg so the other two must be what I am looking for. There was also a CA that looked like it had been rubber stamped on the case, it disappeared with a little WD and a rag when I was cleaning the case.

 

[rushpowersystems]

O.K. I have good news and bad news, first you have one of the best GM alternator every built, this is a second generation CS144. This was pulled from a 95 - 99 GM and it has many improvements over the first generation CS144, the problem is it is wider than the first gen., you may need an extension bracket to get the alternator to fit.

The best improvements are a heavy duty rear bearing, and the slip ring should have a shield to keep things like mud out, sound useful? Plus 140 amps is a good thing.

You have D445 regulator with a 14.7 voltage set point, that is good, bad part is you have load response control (LRC). Lets say you power up a winch, the regulator sees the load but has a slow build up to power it, they did this to reduce spikes to the BCM and ECM, when you are power a winch you need power fast, that is why we don’t use this regulator with stereo systems.

This regulator is designed to interface with a BCM, the correct way to run this regulator is to apply 2.5 volts to the “L” terminal which is the center pin of the small pins. You can get a replacement plug from most napa’s and you will need to solder in a resistor with the color code of green, blue, brown, you can find one at radio shack. The other option is to replace the regulator although I would go with a external regulator if it were me.

Another problem is you have avalanche diodes in the rectifier, this is also designed to protect the ECU and BCM, it can be a source for stereo noise and give you poor performance when used with high draw equipment.

So yes a die grinder is fine just be carful that you don’t damage the rotor shaft, many times we will cut the ribs of the pulley and finish it with a chisel and hammer. You will probably damage the plastic external fan. When some cheap rebuild companies rebuild an alternator they split the two halves. If it has the pulley set up you are dealing with and the front bearing is in somewhat good condition they will just clean the slip ring and the front case and send it out. Its not right but they get away with it.

 

[rushpowersystems]

Hey IO,

just for kicks I looked up a stock unit, with the good regulator and no avalanche diodes, 100 % new 140 amp with plug is $185 including site discount, plug and shipping, you can add a full install kit for $50.00. We have the stock first generation of the CS144, 120 amp for $AMC 150 .00 with discount, plug, and shipping. The kit includes alternator to battery cable, fuse, and fuse holder. Gives you an idea of how much money to put into the one you have now.

 

[IOPort51]

So far I am out $20 and it has been a lot more fun than going to the movies. I do see the cost effectiveness of buying the "re engineered" unit, so far I have found the rectifier with non avalanche diodes for about $60 and so far the only regulater replacement I have found is an adjustable voltage external mount Transpo B circuit regulater for about $90, I haven't looked for a bearing and brush kit yet. The LRC, is it a function of the avalanche diodes? Or is it a function or the regulator or do both do a slow power up?? if you supply a constant 2.5 V to the "L" terminal will that be the same as a constant signal from the BCM?
I can see where a 2 second delay on full power from the LRC could be a problem for a sterio system but would it be that large a problem for constand loads like a winch or electric fan?

 

[rushpowersystems]

Yes 2 second is bad but the one you picked up from the bone yard is a 10 sec delay, the truth is a 2 second is just fine, unless you get into a Kinetik battery you are going to have a 2 second delay anyway. Batteries are not fast, Kinetik power cells are very fast but they are not a good choice for a starting battery and they are very expensive.

LRC is the regulator, in some situations an alternator can surge to 16 or more volts and if that happens the diodes avalanche and dump the power to save the ECU/BCM, this usually happens around 17 volts.

The fact is this, if you are running a winch or big stereo you should be looking at a 200 amp alternator anyway. If you want to do this your self and do it right you are going to need access to a press, a air compressor, a vice, and a way to spin the rotor at high speed to resurface the slip ring on the rotor, although you could put the rotor in a 6" vise and resurface the slip ring that way.

I only use the best parts I can find and I make no bones about the fact that I am the worlds most expensive alternator company. My most expensive alternator is $2800.00, so I know what I am talking about when I tell you $60 for a non-avalanche rectifier is way high! With the regulator, it depends on which one we are talking about. If it is the “V” series then that is too high, if it is the 911 series it’s a little better but I can beat it, if we are talking about the 911-02R then it is a good price. Keep in mind you need to do some easy tricks to the inside of the alternator to make the external regulator work.

So you are looking at $AMC 150 .00, between Christmas and new years we did some updates on the computers so my “go to office” is not up yet, so this is off the top of my head. I a quite sure I can get you a non avalanche rectifier that will handle up to 250 amps with press fit diodes, external regulator, full bearing kit, brush holder kit, capacitor, slip ring resurfacing cloth, adapter wiring for the external regulator, shipped to your door for about $130.00. The regulator is an adjustable unit, I installed it in my JC5 and it has less then 2 hours on it (check the last photo). It is the 911-04 regulator, I have decided I am going to go with the 911-02R regulator. It is basically the same unit but with it you can adjust the voltage on the fly from the drivers seat 14-16.5 volts. If you want that reg (911-02R) you are looking at about another $60.00 and another $80.00 if you want a 200 amp stator. We did inventory and lest just say I am not too happy with how may rectifiers and regulators we have.

But you are going to need to do some testing, here is how. When you separate the two halves the rotor will remain attached to the alternator drive end (DE), unless you got the pulley off. On the other end of the rotor known as the slip ring end (SRE) you will find the copper slip ring, its is actually two rings in one, you will notice there are two black marks going around the slip ring, this was the place the brushes were riding. Get your ohm meter out and measure the resistance of the slip ring by placing the leads on the copper parts near each black strip. You will notice a center line make sure your leads are on each side. You will want to see 1.5 to 2.9 ohms, now move one of the leads to the shaft, you should have no connection at all. Get your hair dryer out and heat it up results should be the same. If it test ok you have a good rotor, if not I would start with a new unit.

If you are going to reuse the same stator, test the leads you should have no resistance between the 3 wires and no connection between one lead and the metal case, check it with heat as well. Inspect the plastic insulator at the point the wire passes through the center stack, any of them burned or if any of the stator windings are black replace the stator. post up a photo if you are not sure.

And finally don’t start building high amps and compete with me. Oh an when you get the pulley off be carful, there are spacers between the pulley, bearing, and fan, keep track of which one goes where.

Send me a note in the am or call me @ 801-557-7684 if you need more info or want the parts

 

[IOPort51]

Yes 2 second is bad but the one you picked up from the bone yard is a 10 sec delay, the truth is a 2 second is just fine, unless you get into a Kinetik battery you are going to have a 2 second delay anyway. Batteries are not fast, Kinetik power cells are very fast but they are not a good choice for a starting battery and they are very expensive.

LRC is the regulator, in some situations an alternator can surge to 16 or more volts and if that happens the diodes avalanche and dump the power to save the ECU/BCM, this usually happens around 17 volts.



The fact is this, if you are running a winch or big stereo you should be looking at a 200 amp alternator anyway. If you want to do this your self and do it right you are going to need access to a press, a air compressor, a vice, and a way to spin the rotor at high speed to resurface the slip ring on the rotor, although you could put the rotor in a 6" vise and resurface the slip ring that way.

I only use the best parts I can find and I make no bones about the fact that I am the worlds most expensive alternator company. My most expensive alternator is $2800.00, so I know what I am talking about when I tell you $60 for a non-avalanche rectifier is way high! With the regulator, it depends on which one we are talking about. If it is the “V” series then that is too high, if it is the 911 series it’s a little better but I can beat it, if we are talking about the 911-02R then it is a good price. Keep in mind you need to do some easy tricks to the inside of the alternator to make the external regulator work.

So you are looking at $AMC 150 .00, between Christmas and new years we did some updates on the computers so my “go to office” is not up yet, so this is off the top of my head. I a quite sure I can get you a non avalanche rectifier that will handle up to 250 amps with press fit diodes, external regulator, full bearing kit, brush holder kit, capacitor, slip ring resurfacing cloth, adapter wiring for the external regulator, shipped to your door for about $130.00. The regulator is an adjustable unit, I installed it in my JC5 and it has less then 2 hours on it (check the last photo). It is the 911-04 regulator, I have decided I am going to go with the 911-02R regulator. It is basically the same unit but with it you can adjust the voltage on the fly from the drivers seat 14-16.5 volts. If you want that reg (911-02R) you are looking at about another $60.00 and another $80.00 if you want a 200 amp stator. We did inventory and lest just say I am not too happy with how may rectifiers and regulators we have.

But you are going to need to do some testing, here is how. When you separate the two halves the rotor will remain attached to the alternator drive end (DE), unless you got the pulley off. On the other end of the rotor known as the slip ring end (SRE) you will find the copper slip ring, its is actually two rings in one, you will notice there are two black marks going around the slip ring, this was the place the brushes were riding. Get your ohm meter out and measure the resistance of the slip ring by placing the leads on the copper parts near each black strip. You will notice a center line make sure your leads are on each side. You will want to see 1.5 to 2.9 ohms, now move one of the leads to the shaft, you should have no connection at all. Get your hair dryer out and heat it up results should be the same. If it test ok you have a good rotor, if not I would start with a new unit.

If you are going to reuse the same stator, test the leads you should have no resistance between the 3 wires and no connection between one lead and the metal case, check it with heat as well. Inspect the plastic insulator at the point the wire passes through the center stack, any of them burned or if any of the stator windings are black replace the stator. post up a photo if you are not sure.

And finally don’t start building high amps and compete with me. Oh an when you get the pulley off be carful, there are spacers between the pulley, bearing, and fan, keep track of which one goes where.

Send me a note in the am or call me @ 801-557-7684 if you need more info or want the parts

let me remove the pulley and crack the case and test the slip rings and such and I will let you know what it looks like. thanks for the help.

 

[rushpowersystems]

Good deal, I would start with the testing first. You have about a 25% chance the rotor will be bad, the DE and the fan are about $25.00 so there is not much point in fighting the pulley to save the DE. You will probably need to fight the rotor as well, many times it locks its self into the DE bearing, you will need a puller, heat and a lot of WD40 for that.

 

[IOPort51]

Good deal, I would start with the testing first. You have about a 25% chance the rotor will be bad, the DE and the fan are about $25.00 so there is not much point in fighting the pulley to save the DE. You will probably need to fight the rotor as well, many times it locks its self into the DE bearing, you will need a puller, heat and a lot of WD40 for that.

OK it's apart.
the slip rings read 2,5 ohms between and nothing to the rotor, thats good, rotor is out of the DE, is the bearing replaceable in the DE of is it a "unit" I pressed the bearing out and it looks as if there was a retainer "lip" on the inside of the DE.
The resistance readings on the stator, were these with the connectors removed from the rectifier?? I think I have a mega ohm tester around here someplace , that would be the best way to test the insulation on the stator , I would think.

 

[rushpowersystems]

Delphi was trying to cut down on parts, that is why the bearing was locked in, there is a clip that will hold the new bearing in place.

You are just trying to find out if there is a break in the wiring or if the wires are touching the stator stack, any meter will do. When you reinstall the stator make sure the wires do not touch the rectifier bridge or the case, if it does the unit will not work.