Engine oil additives

[CJim7]

For some time now, I've been using Brad Penn oil in my 401. The reason for this is the high ZDDP content as they have all but removed zinc from motor oils. Our older engines benefit from zinc, and flat tappet cams and lifters live a longer life with the presence of it.

I've been searching around for oil supplements because quite frankly, $9/qt is a lot to pay for oil in my book. I had very little luck at Napa, Carquest, Autozone...until I went to Schucks O'reily today.

Their engine oil supplement line is Rislone, and they had two versions of oil treatment. The first, is a standard supplement which restores ZDDP zinc and phosphorus levels to your average motor oil. It's a 32oz bottle for $12.95. The second version contains no true zinc, but synthetically mimics the ZDDP additive. It was $17 and change. I dont believe in synthetic...quite yet...

So, I went with the first version containing true zinc and phosphorus additives, we'll see.

I had no luck finding GM EOS or Edelbrock's ZDDP additive even though Schucks reportedly caries it.

 

[83cj7]

I found my 2 cases at an engine machine shop. It's made or at least packaged by Clevite (the engine bearing co.) and each bottle is good for 5 quarts motor oil.
I use it in both my cummins motors as well as my freshly rebuilt AMC 304 . Make sure you add the proper amount because if you overdose it will start to eat the metal.
Another source is Lucus rebuilt/new engine break in additive avail. at Napa stores
I still see alot of people think that Delo 400 diesel oil has the proper amount but have read that it was removed due to emmision laws and the oil then changed its packaging to LE(low emission)which is what is avail. now.

 

[Posi]

Although they began lowering their ZDDP content about 3 years ago I still use rotella-t 15-40 and feel comfortable doing so.

 

[Sasquach]

The shop that rebuilt my Huricane 134 sent this home with it.

 

[Posi]

I like that 58 Willys wagon on the background.

 

[Sasquach]

I like that 58 Willys wagon on the background.

That is my buddy Norman's and he goes everywere in it, Including the top of the Inyo mountains were the pic was taken.

 

[robert1973]

would an additive benefit even my AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l also?

 

[BajaEdition]

Lucas oil additives are in the next town over from me, I seem to be able to get it everywhere.
Good Stuff

 

[Old Dog]

would an additive benefit even my AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l also?

Yes all older flat tappet cams need it to help them stay alive.

 

[robert1973]

They sell all the lucas additives here at most of the auto part stores. I'll start using some of their oil additive then. Thanks for the answer

 

[hutchman]

First off, I would like to state that I am not an engineer, nor do I have a lot of knowledge on oils.......but I have done some research and have formed my own opinion from this research.

First off, the new ILSAC GF-5 and the API Specifications require that Phosphorus be held to the reduced amount from the last spec. They claim that these new oils are backwards compatible and provide adequate protection for sliding friction such as that on a flat tappet cam. We have all heard however that at least on some engines that this may not be true........so we all run out and buy additives to put in the oil and protect our engines from premature cam wear. It is my belief that this works......adding ZDDP for additional zinc and phosphorus probably works.

My understanding of the ZDDP is that it helps modify the wear characteristics of the oil under sliding contact....... It essentially is a band aid for less than perfect oil base stock. So if we buy good oil.......with high quality base stock, do we need the ZDDP at all? I believe there is oil that does meet our needs without the ZDDP and all you have to do is look for oil that meets a slightly different standard.

Here is a link to the ILSAC GF-5, API SN Standard:

http://www.infineum.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/notebooks/gf5/FinalApprovedSpec.pdf

If you look down the page you will find the spec for average cam wear....which is 60 PPM.

Here is a link to the old ILSAC GF-1 Spec, which would have covered API SG oils......and they were OK for a flat tappet cam:

http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/Abstracts/GasEng.pdf

If you read down the test, you will find that the average cam wear spec for GF-1 was 30 ppm or exactly 1/2 the level of the new GF-5. It is my opinion that this reduction in the standard is the reason the we might suffer premature cam wear in our older engines. Not the loss of zinc and phosphorus, but the higher wear is the cause of the problem. The ZDDP is added to reduce this wear.

So getting back to my point that all we need to do is to find an oil that is more restrictive on allowed cam wear and we may not have to add ZDDP additive.....but how do we find such an oil? Simply we look at European spec oils.

ACEA oils are oils that meet the requirements of the European Automobile Manufacturers Association. What makes these oils better for flat tappet cams......quite simply the wear requirements for these oils are much more stringent than ILSAC/API oils.

Here is a link to ACEA oil requirements:

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/2010_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf

Reading the spec, you will find that the average cam wear requirement to pass this spec is 10 ppm or less. This wear requirement is 1/3 the limit of the old ILSAC GF-1 that was good for our older engines. In other words, the older GF-1, which our engines liked, allowed 3 times the amount of cam wear as the ACEA specs allow.

ACEA oil can be found at any Walmart too.....

Here is a link to Mobile 1 Extended Performance 5W30 spec sheet:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil

It meets the standards of ACEA A1/B1 A5/B5, so it should give better protection from cam wear than the older API SG oils, which were good for flat tappet cams. There are others to, but this is the first that comes to mind for me. All you have to do is look for the ACEA ratings.

I only present this to give another look at oils from a different perspective. This is not meant to change anyone's mind about ZDDP, nor will I spend any time arguing about this......it is just another view point on the problem of getting good oil for a flat tappet cam engine. I hope some of you read this and use the information to educate your self and come to you own conclusions.

Again, I do not believe it is wrong to add zinc and phosphorus to oil to reduce cam wear. This works.....but for me, I choose to buy a quality base stock and not have to add anything........

FWIW.....

 

[CJim7]

Again, I do not believe it is wrong to add zinc and phosphorus to oil to reduce cam wear. This works.....but for me, I choose to buy a quality base stock and not have to add anything........

FWIW.....

Great post, and thank you
...And I agree with you. The problem arises, particularly in my area, where quality oils are very expensive ($9/qt). Therefore, I started looking into additives to reduce the cost and offer the same protection.

 

[hutchman]

Here is an explanation of the ACEA ratings you will find on the bottle.

A / B – Petrol and diesel engine oils

(A = petrol engines and B = light duty diesel engines)
A1 / B1
Oils intended for use in petrol and diesel car and light commercial vehicles specifically capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils with high temperature / high shear characteristics.
A3 / B3
For use in high performance petrol and diesel cars and light commercials where extended drain intervals are specified by the vehicle manufacturer and / or for year-round use of low viscosity oils and / or for use in severe operating conditions as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.
A3 / B4
For use in high performance petrol and direct injection diesel engines. Also suitable for applications described under B3.
A5 / B5
For use at extended oil change intervals in high performance car and light commercial petrol and diesel engines designed for low viscosity oils.


The rating for Mobile 1 10W30 Extended Performance is ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5


For rating for Mobile 1 10W30 High Mileage is ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4


The older ACEA specs called for different wear limits for some of the ratings, but the new spec seems be the same for all.......10 ppm or less. So for camshaft wear, any of the ratings would be OK.

The next time you are in Walmart or any other store that has a good selection of oil, look at the labels and see which have the ACEA ratings.....there are not too many. Many of the boutique oils step all around the ratings issue with words that suggest they meet or exceed the AECA specs, but they only suggest that they do. They do not have the actual spec they are tested to on the container because they are not tested as such, so buyer beware.

As an interesting side note, I have heard and read over the years that you can buy better oil than Mobil 1. I know everyone has their favorite, and again, I am not trying to change your mind.......But......

In the mid 90s, I worked for an Indy Car team in the old CART Series. We ran Mercedes Benz engines, but they only had Mercedes valve covers. The engines were developed and built by Ilmor Engineering. For a 200 mile race, we turned them 13,500 and up to 14,500 during qualification. Ilmor required that we run the best oil available.......we ran Mobil 1 20W40 Racing oil straight out of the parts store. I know it came straight out of the store 'cause one of my jobs was to stock the truck with supplies before we went out on the road. This is not meant to suggest you use Racing Oil in your street car, but rather to highlight the fact that Mobil 1 is quality oil straight out of the bottle.

Again, just an interesting story, but I have run Mobil 1 off and on ever since. My current Jeep has a bad rear main seal leak so I just run the cheap stuff from Jiffy Lube and hope for the best - they have free top offs! If the cam goes flat, it's time for a new motor and a new rear main seal!

 

[hutchman]

I want to show you what some of these manufacturers will do to infer that they meet ACEA standards:

APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the listed performance specifications:


0W-30 (AZO): API SN (Resource Conserving), SM…; ILSAC GF-5, GF-4…; ACEA A5/B5, A1/B1; Ford WSS-M2C946-A, WSS-M2C929-A; Chrysler MS-6395N; Suitable as a replacement for GM dexos1™ (supersedes LL-A-025, 6094M and 4718M)


Notice it states that this oil is for use an any vehicle requiring any of the listed specs. However, if you read further, you will find the this oil is only tested to the ILSAC/API specs. It is not tested to ACEA specs, so you have to really watch what they say if you want ACEA spec oil.


Now for my disclaimer.......I think Amsoil is very good oil. I have nothing against Amsoil and have used it in the past. I only use Amsoil as an example as their ratings are very easy to find. However, they have added a new oil since the last time I looked with ZDDP added specifically to reduce camshaft wear on older vehicles. So that makes me wonder if their base oils would not pass ACEA specs or they have just added ZDDP to their oil due to marketing conditions.....don't know......?


I guess the bottom line is for each of use to chose wisely.....either put additives in your oil to increase zinc and phosphorus, or buy oil that is tested to produce very low camshaft wear numbers. Or do like me in my CJ7 and use the current API rated oils and hope for the best!