hard shifting reverse

[3wheelingCJ]

I have noticed that shifting into reverse is a little tricky. I have to take it slow and wait until it lines up and goes it. Usually there is some grinding noise associated with it, but not too bad while cold. Once everything gets up to normal running temp shifting into reverse becomes a much bigger issue. The grinding is horrible and it requires a good push. It gets worth when in 4x4.
Also noticed that if I put Transfer Case into neutral it is easier to shift into reverse, but then shifting the Transfer Case out of neutral is almost impossible.
Just had the fluid change recently and it didn't help. Put in 80W per manual.

Any ideas? I am really hoping that it just requires some linkage adjustment since I don't have the means of replacing or rebuilding the tranny.

Thanks in advance

 

[Barry2]

Check the adjustment on your clutch linkage.

 

[jdarg]

Sounds like the clutch isn't quite releasing all the way. You can try lengthening the adjustment rod a bit and see if it helps, esp. if your clutch engages just off the floor. Otherwise its probably goign to have to come apart - pilot bushing, etc. is probably hosed.

 

[3wheelingCJ]

thanks for the replies.

Turns out the clutch linckage had be adjusted. The clutch used to catch very early in the bottom (jdarg), so I turned the adjuster out. Now the clutch catches really late, but the the reverse shifts very smooth. I also noticed improvement with the rest of the gears.
I am going to adjust it back a little, because I would like the clutch to catch at least somewhat earlier. Just going to have to find the sweet spot.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Texian]

Don't be playing with the adjustment by where you would like it to engage/release. Not good.

Adjust it for about 1" of free play/slack at the pedal.You don't want to burn out your throwout bearing.

 

[Hedgehog]

Just make sure your clutch is fully engaging, nothing burns a clutch up quicker than letting it slip. Your manual should cover proper clutch adjustment in considerable detail. ...... EDIT .... also what he said.

 

[3wheelingCJ]

unfortunetly the manual that i have doesn't get into a great detail on how to properly adjust the linkage. it just go over the process of doing it.

I will do some searching for the amount of free play.

thanks for your help

 

[Texian]

" 1" (25.4mm) on 1975 models."

at the pedal

 

[tarry99]

thanks for the replies.

Turns out the clutch linckage had be adjusted. The clutch used to catch very early in the bottom (jdarg), so I turned the adjuster out. Now the clutch catches really late, but the the reverse shifts very smooth. I also noticed improvement with the rest of the gears.
I am going to adjust it back a little, because I would like the clutch to catch at least somewhat earlier. Just going to have to find the sweet spot.

Thanks again for your help.

The sweet spot is simple...........as you increase free-play at the top of the pedal travel you loose total travel in order to fully release your clutch when the pedal is down..............I would first inspect your linkage if you have worn parts then part of the travel is being compromised by loose or warn bushings, you need to tune that up first........every point in the system from the attaching point on your pedals until it hits the clutch fork should have very little static movement or wear..........then proceed with an adjustment that gives you adequate travel to full release the pressure plate and allow you to shift while still have as others have mentioned free play at the top of the pedal.........the free play is needed when the motor rpms increase the centrifugal weights in the pressure plate swing out to apply clamping force to the clutch disc. This process needs room to grow and takes away some of that free play when your driving. If you had no free play the clutch would be slipping all the time.

 

[Hedgehog]

Good point on the free play. The linkage on a jeep without a hydrolic clutch can be full of free play of one sort or another. A great way to improve your linkage is to replace the ball type joints with Heim joints, there are kits out there to do just that. It's not cheap, but in todays world anything decent on't be cheap by older standards. By todays standards the improvement you get in your clutch is well worth the price.

 

[jdarg]

This process needs room to grow and takes away some of that free play when your driving.

A stock CJ clutch doesn't have any centrifugal weights. Its solely spring tension applying the clamping force. Even if it had weights, it wouldn't change the throw anyways. Its not like you can push a clutch disc past the surface of the flywheel if you rev high enough.

OP glad you got it sorted with a linkage adjustment and it wasn't your pilot bushing. I don't think anyone thinks pulling transmissions is fun. As said, just make sure you have a little free play at the pedal. If you can move it up and down a bit you are fine.

Underadjusting the throw will ruin your synchros quicker because they have to work much harder to match RPMs during shifts. Frankly I'd shoot for just a bit of free play at the bellhousing arm, maybe 1/8" that you can move that arm sticking out the Transmission , and call it good.

 

[tarry99]

A stock CJ clutch doesn't have any centrifugal weights. Its solely spring tension applying the clamping force. Even if it had weights, it wouldn't change the throw anyways. Its not like you can push a clutch disc past the surface of the flywheel if you rev high enough.

OP glad you got it sorted with a linkage adjustment and it wasn't your pilot bushing. I don't think anyone thinks pulling transmissions is fun. As said, just make sure you have a little free play at the pedal. If you can move it up and down a bit you are fine.

Underadjusting the throw will ruin your synchros quicker because they have to work much harder to match RPMs during shifts. Frankly I'd shoot for just a bit of free play at the bellhousing arm, maybe 1/8" that you can move that arm sticking out the Transmission , and call it good.

Jdarg...........All clutches have centrifugal weight in some form or another to allow progressive lockup........on a 3 finger version the fingers act as the weight swinging out from the fulcrum point during and increase in RPM's.........like wise a diaphragm type clutch does the same thing.........and during that function of weight moving you need room for that process to grow against the throw out bearing within the linkage system...hence the need for the common term we call "FREE PLAY"

Both systems have initial spring pressure on the plate called "BASE" that is what you feel when you statically push the clutch in at a stop sign. ......Then as the vehicle accelerates the centrifugal progressive portion comes in to play..........this progressive function is in all clutch systems to allow a smoother less aggressive release from Stop. When clutch manufactures talk about total plate pressure they do so including the lock up generated by both the BASE springs and centrifugal weight at a given RPM.

And yes you do in fact need more than 1/8" of free play........common is 1/2" to 1 " in the system............thought would would like to know that!

 

[jdarg]

I've never heard of a single application where the throwout bearing needs 1/2" to 1" of clearance between the face of the bearing the the fingers of the pressure plate. Do you have an example of this?

 

[Hedgehog]

I believe the free play is 1" at the pedal. There is a bunch of leverage in a clutch system. I haven't measured any of it, but wouldn't be at all surprised to fins 1" at the pedal to be 1/8" at the fork. A pressure plate doesn't move very much at all when disengaging the disk. I've never heard about a clutch growing with centrifical acceleration, but it does make sence that it exists. The idea is not to have the throw out bearing constantly engaged, but with enough movement to fully disengage the clutch (no drag). No matter really, the clutch linkage needed adjusting or an overhaul of the linkage. Compared to replacing clutch guts thats nothing.

 

[tarry99]

I've never heard of a single application where the throwout bearing needs 1/2" to 1" of clearance between the face of the bearing the the fingers of the pressure plate. Do you have an example of this?

Your missing the point..........it is clearance at the pedal.... from the pedal at rest or its stop to where you feel the pedal hit resistance coming from the throw out bearing hitting the pressure plate...... That's where you want 1/2" to 1" of Free Play travel ( at the top of the pedal travel )...............keep in mind that at the clutch fork to the throw out bearing the ratio changes there to a 2:1 Ratio meaning if you had 1" at the pedal there would only be 1/2" at the bearing. Without proper clearance the bearing is running all the time while in touch with the pressure plate and is also releasing plate load and allowing the clutch disc to slip..........

 

[jdarg]

Your missing the point..........it is clearance at the pedal.... from the pedal at rest or its stop to where you feel the pedal hit resistance coming from the throw out bearing hitting the pressure plate...... That's where you want 1/2" to 1" of Free Play travel ( at the top of the pedal travel )...............keep in mind that at the clutch fork to the throw out bearing the ratio changes there to a 2:1 Ratio meaning if you had 1" at the pedal there would only be 1/2" at the bearing. Without proper clearance the bearing is running all the time while in touch with the pressure plate and is also releasing plate load and allowing the clutch disc to slip..........

I'm not missing the point - you didn't read what I wrote:

"Frankly I'd shoot for just a bit of free play at the bellhousing arm, maybe 1/8" that you can move that arm sticking out the Transmission , and call it good."

I never said at the pedal. Given all the other variables - pedal/bellcrank ratios, slop in worn balls and sockets, etc. its better to measure at the fork. I don't care what the FSM says about measuring free play at the pedal...that's just a convenient measurement so people don't have to crawl under their Jeep and get dirty.

The bearing needs only 1/16", and given the typical 2:1 ratio on forks, that's 1/8" at the opposite end of the arm that sticks outside of the bellhousing.

 

[tarry99]

I'm not missing the point - you didn't read what I wrote:

"Frankly I'd shoot for just a bit of free play at the bellhousing arm, maybe 1/8" that you can move that arm sticking out the Transmission , and call it good."

I never said at the pedal. Given all the other variables - pedal/bellcrank ratios, slop in worn balls and sockets, etc. its better to measure at the fork. I don't care what the FSM says about measuring free play at the pedal...that's just a convenient measurement so people don't have to crawl under their Jeep and get dirty.

The bearing needs only 1/16", and given the typical 2:1 ratio on forks, that's 1/8" at the opposite end of the arm that sticks outside of the bellhousing.

Well you adjust your clutch however you feel is appropriate.....no way .060 thousands will work at the throw out bearing but if you don't mind changing clutches or noisy bearings have at it!

 

[jdarg]

What are you talking about? 1/16" is pretty much standard for TOB's that require ANY clearance.

I give up.....