Hydraulic lifter / cam lobe issue

[jeepboy45]

I tend to be longwinded with my questions, but I'm trying to cover all bases. It seems I've had to tackle one issue after the next lately... Thanks to a wealth of info on here, and knowledgeable members, it hasnt been TOO terrible..

So, my last upgrade/repair was the teamrush ignition upgrade. Since that has been completed, I have discovered another problem. I had assumed that my ignition was in the toilet due to the very poor perfomance and noise at higher rpms. It has sounded almost like a backfire condition. In addition to that I have a persistent tick from valvetrain. I assumed it was because of my low oil pressure not feeding the valvetrain as it should.

I stood next to it after adjusting the timing, listening to the engine idle with the hood open, and opened the throttle fully in very fast movements. It spurted mist out of the carb!! Something was wrong, I assumed a possible broken valve spring. Between my son and I, we decided ticking was coming from the pass side valve cover. I took it off and the first cylinder (number 2) rockers were hardly moving. Next cylinder back (number 4) the rockers were moving, but not much better. I was hoping to find broken valve spring, or bent pushrods, but I dont have either. I took off the rockers and pushrods, started it back up, and it didnt run a whole lot different. I guess I have been running on 7 "ish" cylinders. Explains the lack of power.

The pushrod is only moving about 1/8 of an inch, hardly at all. I dont know if the lifter is collapsed, or stuck. It would be hard for me to imagine the cam becoming that worn out. But with me holding the pushrod in the block, making contact with the lifter, it hardly moves up and down. By doing that, it seems that the cam lobe could be completely worn out. I find it odd that the first cylinder's lifters are the worst, the next one back slightly better, and the remaining two seem fine.

I havent popped off the drivers side yet.

Wondering if there is a sticky lifter issue what the best solution would be. I've read of adding ATF to oil, adding marvel mystery oil to the mix, etc....

I know that a rebuild is coming in my future, and have started rounding up parts. But I'd like to keep this engine running while I build up another one.

Any ideas??

 

[FLA CJ7]

I'd look into the lifter situation first. It's a lot easier to fix than the cam. First, I'd try the Marvel Mystery Oil. Dump it in with your next oil change and run it. See if you notice a difference. If that doesn't work, Pull your rockers, pushrods, and pull out the first two lifters. Check the bottom of the lifters for wear. If it's really bad, chances are the cam is the same. You should be able to see down the hole with a flashlight and tell what the cam lobe looks like. If the cam and bottoms of the lifters look ok, just replace the lifters that are bad to get you by until a full rebuild. They run about $4 each at Advance Auto. Make sure you keep your rockers and pushrods in the same order they came out each one is a matching set. I use a shoe box with holes poked in it for the pushrods, and put the rockers and hardware in a box with dividers in it. I label each one with a marker. I also mark the box for front of motor. Hope this helps.

 

[jeffgtoman]

You can cut your oil filter open and see how much metal is in it. Cam lobe metal tends to show up pretty easy in the filter. It also wreaks havoc on your rod and main bearings. If the cam lobe is gone, you'll find a lot of metal in the filter that looks grey. It will look almost like powder. Dig your finger between the filter pleats and in the bottom of the filter can.

The best way to get the filter apart is to grind around the top lip until it separates. If you use a hacksaw, be sure not to confuse the metal shavings you create with what was in the filter.

Driving with this metal in the pan might drive up the future rebuild costs since you will likely need to machine the crank and replace the cam bushings. If you were going to do that anyway, no big deal.

 

[jeepboy45]

I'd look into the lifter situation first. It's a lot easier to fix than the cam. First, I'd try the Marvel Mystery Oil. Dump it in with your next oil change and run it. See if you notice a difference. If that doesn't work, Pull your rockers, pushrods, and pull out the first two lifters. Check the bottom of the lifters for wear. If it's really bad, chances are the cam is the same. You should be able to see down the hole with a flashlight and tell what the cam lobe looks like. .

Thanks...I looked down the pushrod hole and cant even see the lifter moving. I dont really feel like pulling the intake to change the lifters. In reality it isnt that big of a deal, but I HATE pulling and replacing an intake...!! Just a big pain in the *** getting it sealed again. I have an Edelbrock so its not like I have to lift out that darn 70 lb iron stock one!! Maybe its laziness. Look at the next response below...... after looking, I fear it is much worse.

You can cut your oil filter open and see how much metal is in it. Cam lobe metal tends to show up pretty easy in the filter. It also wreaks havoc on your rod and main bearings. If the cam lobe is gone, you'll find a lot of metal in the filter that looks grey. It will look almost like powder. Dig your finger between the filter pleats and in the bottom of the filter can.

The best way to get the filter apart is to grind around the top lip until it separates. If you use a hacksaw, be sure not to confuse the metal shavings you create with what was in the filter.

Driving with this metal in the pan might drive up the future rebuild costs since you will likely need to machine the crank and replace the cam bushings. If you were going to do that anyway, no big deal.

I think it might be more serious than just the lifters. As I just mentioned to Fla CJ7 , I looked and dont really see the lifters moving up and down. Its hard to see down there, but not much movement at all. I think I'll cut open the filter and take a look inside. And BTW: good call. Last month I had a good exhaust system put on. My Jeep has never been sooo quiet. Since that day I can now hear all the going on in the bottom end. Sounds like someone dropped marbles in my pan!!! maybe its all the stray metal that tore up my bottom end..

I didnt mention this before, but this engine is one I found in an old wagoneer. I pulled and installed it in my Jeep in the same weekend. I didnt know it till later that it had 144K miles on it. Crappy oil pressure too, but at least it ran stronger than the original AMC 304 I had rebuilt about 75K miles ago. Needless to say, it is tired. I found a 360 that I am gonna pick up this weekend if I can, and begin disassembly and a rebuild process with my sons.

thanks guys.
brian

 

[jeepboy45]

I took out the filter so I could cut it open and look inside as suggested above... I am a bit curious....

I decided to put in a qt of MMO and see if things freed up....
Apparently it freed something up, because before I put it in, there was nearly no oil being pumped through the pushrods. I wish I had been paying more attention because I was running late for dinner and took a 4 minute shower... AND LEFT THE JEEP IDLING... Came back out to find at least a qt of oil on the garage floor and the inside of my hood and EXTREMELY CLEAN engine compartment covered in oil !!!! DAMN !!!! The project for today is to clean out my garage and degrease my engine compartment...

However the front cylinders rockers didnt appear to be moving any more than before. I'll run it some more with the MMO in it, but I'm not real hopeful... Its still hard for me to believe that the cam lobes have worn down that much, but I dont see the lifters moving up and down within their bores.

One friend suggested that maybe they had frozen in their bores in the up position, closing the valves, but I dont think that is the case since there is slight movement at the pushrods....

 

[Niedhogg]

I took out the filter so I could cut it open and look inside as suggested above... I am a bit curious....

I decided to put in a qt of MMO and see if things freed up....
Apparently it freed something up, because before I put it in, there was nearly no oil being pumped through the pushrods. I wish I had been paying more attention because I was running late for dinner and took a 4 minute shower... AND LEFT THE JEEP IDLING... Came back out to find at least a qt of oil on the garage floor and the inside of my hood and EXTREMELY CLEAN engine compartment covered in oil !!!! DAMN !!!! The project for today is to clean out my garage and degrease my engine compartment...

However the front cylinders rockers didnt appear to be moving any more than before. I'll run it some more with the MMO in it, but I'm not real hopeful... Its still hard for me to believe that the cam lobes have worn down that much, but I dont see the lifters moving up and down within their bores.

One friend suggested that maybe they had frozen in their bores in the up position, closing the valves, but I dont think that is the case since there is slight movement at the pushrods....

That's pretty funny, but I won't laugh at you, nor will I tell you the dumba$$ thing I did to my hood last week (you would laugh), because if that's how karma treats you, my friend, you might end up totalling your Jeep...

Hint: it has something to do with hood latches, and high winds...

 

[jeepboy45]

That's pretty funny, but I won't laugh at you, nor will I tell you the dumbbehind thing I did to my hood last week (you would laugh), because if that's how karma treats you, my friend, you might end up totalling your Jeep...

Hint: it has something to do with hood latches, and high winds...

Oh, no....I hope there wasnt any damage....
And no, I wouldnt laugh at anyones misfortune....I only made fun because of I had made the dumb mistake of pcv valve too, and it just made a mess....

 

[Ithoughtitwasagoodidea]

With the EPA taking all the additives out the motor oils. It will make a flat tappet cam wear out in record time. I`ve been thru it. I`m sure your cam is wiped out. If you can get the lifters out for inspection, will be your best bet.

 

[jasonmark1993]

If the lifters are stuck in the up position, your valves should be held open. This could explain why you had fuel blow back out the carb AND why you don't see them move. You can get blow back like that without the valves being stuck open though.....

Another possibility that you mentioned about collapsed lifters could be the problem. I would get the rocker and pushrod removed from the suspect cylinders. Use something thin like a long pic, coat hanger, etc. and carefully ride it down the side of the lifter bore until it is touching the outer edge of the lifter; not on the plunger. Then have someone rotate the engine over by hand. This way you can see how much the lifter is actually moving. It is possible that with old lifters and extended periods of low oil psi that the spring is so worn that as the lifter is moving up the plunger is pushing down at the same time.

 

[jeepboy45]

With the EPA taking all the additives out the motor oils. It will make a flat tappet cam wear out in record time. I`ve been thru it. I`m sure your cam is wiped out. If you can get the lifters out for inspection, will be your best bet.

AARG!!! It may not be a positive response, but it sounds realistic... thanks

If the lifters are stuck in the up position, your valves should be held open. This could explain why you had fuel blow back out the carb AND why you don't see them move. You can get blow back like that without the valves being stuck open though.....

Another possibility that you mentioned about collapsed lifters could be the problem. I would get the rocker and pushrod removed from the suspect cylinders. Use something thin like a long pic, coat hanger, etc. and carefully ride it down the side of the lifter bore until it is touching the outer edge of the lifter; not on the plunger. Then have someone rotate the engine over by hand. This way you can see how much the lifter is actually moving. It is possible that with old lifters and extended periods of low oil psi that the spring is so worn that as the lifter is moving up the plunger is pushing down at the same time.

sounds like a good idea... I'll see if they are really moving...

 

[jeepboy45]

Funny, now that I ran the MMO through the system for about 20 minutes, it is running worse than ever.... It now has less power AND it is popping through the exhaust.... Maybe now an intake lifter has started moving enough to allow gas/air into the chamber and actually closing, but the exhaust valve isnt fully closed or even burnt, allowing backfiring through the carb and exhaust...

AARG!@!! I just wanted to buy some time to do a rebuild on another 360 and keep driving this..

thanks for the imput from everyone.

 

[CJim7]

sounds like wiped cam lobes. And yes, they go very fast if there is a problem. I completely rounded off the #2 intake lobe and ground out the bottom of the lifter to the oil reservoir in a matter of weeks (brand new lifters)
What can cause this is lack of rotation in the lifter journals.

You have two options. Tear it down and replace the cam/lifters or button it up and drive it sparingly until you have the 360 done.

I use Rislone ZDDP additive as a supplement to what has been taken out of the oil that used to protect our flat tappet engines.

 

[Niedhogg]

Oh, no....I hope there wasnt any damage....
And no, I wouldnt laugh at anyones misfortune....I only made fun because of I had made the dumb mistake of pcv valve too, and it just made a mess....

Just a hood, a might bit cheaper than what it sounds like you'll be enduring... I'm sorry for your loss, but now you can build it the way you like.

 

[jeepboy45]

sounds like wiped cam lobes. And yes, they go very fast if there is a problem. I completely rounded off the #2 intake lobe and ground out the bottom of the lifter to the oil reservoir in a matter of weeks (brand new lifters)
What can cause this is lack of rotation in the lifter journals.

You have two options. Tear it down and replace the cam/lifters or button it up and drive it sparingly until you have the 360 done.

I use Rislone ZDDP additive as a supplement to what has been taken out of the oil that used to protect our flat tappet engines.

Thanks for the tip....and yes, probably going to drive it like you said and build a 360...I'll look into that additive too.

I'm actually looking forward to doing one. I rebuilt a AMC 304 about 15 years ago... I have two sons , 15 and 13, and am looking forward to doing it with them. They both seem interested, and I think it will be cool for them to get some "hands-on" and do it little by little after work/school..

 

[jeepboy45]

Just a hood, a might bit cheaper than what it sounds like you'll be enduring... I'm sorry for your loss, but now you can build it the way you like.

Not a huge loss, I knew it was tired and partially worn out. But it sure did wear fast!!

So, what really happened to the hood? By what you wrote, I figured it must have blown up and probably struck the windshield maybe? But you dont need a whole new one , do you?

 

[CJim7]

I'm actually looking forward to doing one. I rebuilt a AMC 304 about 15 years ago... I have two sons , 15 and 13, and am looking forward to doing it with them. They both seem interested, and I think it will be cool for them to get some "hands-on" and do it little by little after work/school..

You, and they, will enjoy it. It's really not that hard. I've built 4 AMC engines and each one presented it's own challenges, but attention to detail and not cutting corners is the key to success. I enjoyed each build

 

[Ithoughtitwasagoodidea]

There`s not much then the satisfaction, of building your own motor. But as stated, run the ZDDP additive. The EPA took out all the micro lubercants from the motor oils. Newer engines don`t require it, do to roller lifter cam shafts.

 

[jeepboy45]

Before anyone chimes in and says that I am a dumb***, I have a rebuilt (and kinda tired) AMC 304 that I did about 15 yrs ago. Its just sitting on a stand with a fairly new"ish" cam and lifters in it. Probably not a great idea to do this, but I'm gonna take out the cam and lifters and put it in the 360 in my jeep. I know it isnt a great idea to set a cam in a set of bearings that have broken in with a different cam, but it is just temporary. At least I will regain my #2 cylinder while I scrounge for $$$ to do the 360 I just picked up the other day.

Funny thing is, my first thought was to take the cam out of the disassembled 360 I just bought and use it instead.. But guess what??? The same lobes on cylinder #2 are worn, the exhaust moreso than the intake. It wasnt hard to pick out the lifter that went with that lobe!!! (from the plastic bucket of lifters that came with the engine)

So, as suggested above, this wear is due to a lifter not rotating within its bore... What makes a lifter rotate at all? How do I prevent it from NOT turning within its bore and prematurely wearing out????

 

[Niedhogg]

Before anyone chimes in and says that I am a dumb***, I have a rebuilt (and kinda tired) AMC 304 that I did about 15 yrs ago. Its just sitting on a stand with a fairly new"ish" cam and lifters in it. Probably not a great idea to do this, but I'm gonna take out the cam and lifters and put it in the 360 in my jeep. I know it isnt a great idea to set a cam in a set of bearings that have broken in with a different cam, but it is just temporary. At least I will regain my #2 cylinder while I scrounge for $$$ to do the 360 I just picked up the other day.

Funny thing is, my first thought was to take the cam out of the disassembled 360 I just bought and use it instead.. But guess what??? The same lobes on cylinder #2 are worn, the exhaust moreso than the intake. It wasnt hard to pick out the lifter that went with that lobe!!! (from the plastic bucket of lifters that came with the engine)

So, as suggested above, this wear is due to a lifter not rotating within its bore... What makes a lifter rotate at all? How do I prevent it from NOT turning within its bore and prematurely wearing out????

I would give the lifter bores a quick hone, wash them down with a couple quarts of oil, install the other cam and lifters, pour over another quart, button it all up, change the oil and fire it up..

 

[jeepboy45]

Since you concur Neidhogg....consider it DONE!!! Tomorrow the cam swap happens... I have the donor "heart" and the receiving patient is ready to be torn down...!

Pulled the cam and lifters out of the AMC 304 tonight. Before I did so, I spun the cam around and watched the pushrods lift nice and high!

Once we took it out, I had my boys take apart a 360 . The other day when I bought a disassembled 360, my buddy and I reassembled it that night (didnt torque it, just bolted it together) so my sons and I could see it spin over and watch how it is all timed together, then take it apart..

Funny, there isnt a scratch or mark on the cylinder walls or ANY bearing surface at all!!! Cam was wore out just like the one in my Jeep now, but all in all, I bet I could have bought a gasket set and bolted it together and run it tomorrow!!! Oh well, I have much bigger plans for it.. BWAHAHAHA !!!

Mustangs and other #%&^bags on the street watch out... It might take me 6 months + to do it, but it will get done...

Another member suggested break in lube for the cam but since there is already about 20K on it, do I really need to get that? or is lubing it up with a good thick oil ok?????