Jeep wants to change ends.

[harleydragon]

that extra spring was probably put there in an attempt to keep the 360 from bending the springs..If you don't already have some type of traction bars you might want to add them..
As far as movement on the front pivot.If it is side to side movement you could add a flat washer inside to cut down on that..If it is because of a wallowed bolt hole,weld a plate or very thick washer with the correct size hole over it

 

[Hedgehog]

It's not the perches problem, my mistake.

Okay here we go! Some disassembly took place tonight. Removing the PO's big tall shackles was almost the very first thing I did on the CJ. Needless to say I was a little rusty in the mechanical department at the time. Now I have a little more experience in looking for problems. So, what did I find:

As mentioned previously I was sloppy in the way the "U" bolts were tightened up. I did not mate the axle tube perches down properly on the springs. Then the nut torque was inconsistent. As it turns out they were inconsistent for a reason. The threads were damaged. Today I would have completely cleaned the bolt and found the thread problems. Live and learn.

What I am surprised by is the side to side slop in the springs. This is after previously removing the old bushings for new ones. I confess to not removing the top rear shackle bushings, they looked fine at the time, but probably weren't. All worn bushings will be replaced. What surprised me is the amount of side to side movement there is in the front bushing. That one is new with a little over 100 miles on it, the thing can't be worn yet. Something might need to be done about the holes in the pivot plate. What, I have no idea.

So, this is the proper time to ask. In a perfect world there would be no side to side movement in the spring stack. Not that the stack is sloppy, it's tight as can be. The movement is in the pivot and shackle area. But being a realist I know some movement is inevitable, do you know how much side to side movement is acceptable?

While I'm displeased with my previous workmanship, I'm pleased to see there might be some hope in getting rid of the CJ's desire to steer itself by the rear end.

I have found one spring in the stack that doesn't appear to belong with the others. The stock springs are tapered and smooth at the ends, the odd one looks to be simply cut square on the ends. Possibly from a custom spring shop. I think I'll start by removing that one first. It's one of the long sizeable ones that take a lot of the load.

The jeep came from the factory with a AMC 304 in it and I put the 360 in a few months ago. The 360 is more powerful than the AMC 304 , but not a huge amount and I'm not the hot rod type. So the CJ isn't being horsed around. Also, for all practical purposes the engines are physically identical, so they both weigh more or less the same.

I probably didn't make it clear, I'm working on the rear suspension right now so all my comments in the attached post were related to that. The Jeep came to me with BFG 35's and I'm sure the extra spring was there to tame the extra weight of those tires. Also, when the Jeep was purchased it handled horribly. As a matter of fact it was way to tall and frightening to drive. The tires were sold and replaced with 31x10.5's, the extra tall shackles were removed. The Jeep still has some lift left in it, more than likely the springs were either after market or re-arched to gain additional height. Stock springs would be nice, unfortunately the driveshafts, shocks, and pitman arm are set up for this spring height.

More than likely I'll do something like what you suggest for over sized holes in the pivot point (the front spring mount). I've considered getting a set of red neopreme bushings, the kind that have pressed in metal inserts with a flange. Drilling out the pivot holes to accept the metal portion of the bushing. Then cutting the internal sleeve to the thickness of the pivot metal and welding the flanged portion to the pivot. After clean up the new shimmed hole should be hard and last a long time. The front pivot pin hasn't been pulled yet so time will tell on that.

I must add, there is another thread in another sub-forum by another member that is dealing with almost the very same subject. The two threads are not related, but information/answers are likely good for both.

 

[JR74CJ5]

you will be supprised how much realigning and tightening up those rear springs will help the problem you're describing... I had the same problem, same cause (about) and have tried the solution

You sure you didn't have a custom "military wrap" spring going on that hels if you break the main spring?


~ Jr

 

[Hedgehog]

Got the replacement parts last night, newer better bolts, better bushings, new "U" bolts fot the axles.

Removing the extra spring is deffinately the right thing to do to return the spring stack to stock. The clamps that hold the stack together were bent in obviously the wrong places, removing the extra spring brought the clamp bends back into place. Before installing th spring stack the clamp will be restored to it's original configuration and rewelded closed as the manual shows.

Now to remove the new/old spring end bushings. Last spring I replaced the PO's old bushings. It was relatively easy, .... set'em on something solid with a hole under the bushing and pound them out with a sizeable hammer. The new bushings need to be removed to be replaced with higher quality items. It is surprising how much wear the relatively new bushing already show. ... cheap junk ... Unfortunately the newer bushing are proving to be more difficult to remove. All I can guess at is the rubber is still soft and is soaking up the energy needed to start the bushing moving.

So what to do? First I found that using a 7/8" drill removes the center steel sleeve very quickly. The first one was a bear to remove with a hammer and punch, the second one flew out with the drill. THe drill is also handy for tremoving the rubber from the inside of the bushings outer steel sleeve.

Now to remove the outer sleeve. I've tried hitting it with a punch, too small to get a goos grip on it. I tried bending the bushing inward to collapse the sleeve. I can see failure looking me in the face. Tonight I will try welding a nut to the inside of the bushing sleeve. The I'd rather use the nut with abolt and a socket for a driving surface to draw the sleeve out of the spring eye. If that doesn't work there's always a hammer to drive the thing out. I'm looking for something quick and easy. I've got a Jeep trip planned for the long weekend. Some easy off roading around the Silverbell mine area here in Arizona. It will be more of a shake down trip than anything else. Can't wait to get out again and take some pictures.

 

[JR74CJ5]

I've never had a outer metal insert, just the inner...

Maybe I'm mistaken on what you mean...

You're sure its not the part the bushing is supposed to go in?

 

[Hedgehog]

The better bushings have only two pieces, the inner steel sleeve and a red or black outer. Those are probably the ones you are used to. The cheaper ones, in my case the ones that came with my shackles are more or less one piece with steel inner & outer sleeves and rubber between the two.

 

[ramotough]

May sound weird but I've had this happen to me due to a caliper that failed and locked up.

 

[Hedgehog]

Yeah I can see how a brake failure could react like this, but I bet you didn't go very far after the failure.

 

[Hedgehog]

A final write up on this problem:

For some of the troubles I can blame myself. The whole drivers side rear spring workmanship was sloppy. Oh it was together and looked alright, but I must have forgotten to go back and finish tightening everything up. In the instructions I have it basically said to put the bushings, springs and bolts together, set the Jeep on it's springs to settle things then torque everything up. I did that on the passengers side obviously not on the drivers side.

Another thing that isn't entirely my fault, today I would have caught it, but didn't then. The spring stack bolt was replaced. If you've done this before you know the spring stack bolt head is use to locate/index the axle perch with the springs. As it turned out the stack bolt head was to deep and bottomed out prematurely making perfect contact between the spring stack and the axle perch an impossibility. Both right and left side bolt heads have been shortened, no more problem with fitment there.

Surprisingly enough the bushings, while almost new showed wear in the rubber. All spring bushings were replaced. I will NEVER use cheap bushings with an outer metal surface again. They were a bear to remove. I cheated though. First I used a 7/8" drill bit to remove the center steel bushing sleeve and used the same drill bit to grind out as much rubber as possible. Then I used a sacrificial nut, a nut that fit inside the now striped outer bushing almost perfectly and used my MIG welder to mate the nut and bushing. Using the proper bolt as a drift and a 2 lb hammer the bushings came out fairly easily. All bushings in the spring eyes were replaced. Surprisingly enough the top shackle bushings were perfect. The one thing the PO did right. So, I left them in place.

The Spring stack:
As was written earlier there was an obvious spring in the stack that didn't belong. The Jeep was far over spring so the extra spring leaf was removed and the side spring retaining clamps were restored to the way they left the factory.

Final result:

This is entirely a different Jeep. It drives straight down the road even under hard acceleration and deceleration. If I'm being picky, VERY picky, there is still some torque steer, but not enough to think about at all. The Jeep runs and drives like a Jeep is supposed to. I am Very pleased. For a time I was afraid that I was mis-remembering how a Jeep handled, maybe I was expecting to much of my '75 CJ5 . Now I have Jeep that acts properly, I even took it on the interstate. The old girl acted like a lady even at high speeds.

 

[mtnwhlr]

I'm happy to hear you got it all worked out and it sounds like you learned a thing our two. And sharing others have two. Happy Jeeping

 

[Petescj]

I love when a problem gets straightened out. I love it more when people take the time to update us on what it took.

 

[Hedgehog]

Petescj - Thanks. For me it's all about finishing the story and showing enough integrity to admit my own mistakes. The odd part of this was that the Jeep did EXACTLY the same thing when I first bought it with the lift and 35" tires. You would think removing the big tires and lift along with my mistakes would have changed the way the thing drove. Without question my mistakes didn't help matters, but I'm beginning to wonder about the only thing that was the very same until now. The extra spring in the spring stack. ..... well. why dwell on this any longer with the very satisfying out come.

 

[rufus1138]

Good job hog!!! Glad u got her tracking properly again

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