New CJ7 with a 350 conv. needs starter help

[ColeTrickle]

Howdy, I'm the proud owner of a new to me CJ7 .


The PO's uncle installed a GM HEI 350 engine in a previously AMC 304 powerplant jeep.

Will anyone help a new kid on the block out? I'm completely new to anything Chevy. Guess thats the only brand that I've never owned.

My question is about the starter on this engine. We were able to start it and run it onto the trailer. The starter, however, sounds like its sticking. Like a dying cat!!!

I pulled the starter and it looks like its only coming in contact with about the front third of the flywheel. Not only that, I smashed my finger when I unbolted it and was prying the starter out to inspect. Dunno if it was in a bad bind or if this is common.

Can and will anyone shed some light on my starter issues? I really don't know alot about the engine besides it doesn't smoke and has good oil pressure.

I got many other questions but will work one problem at a time.
Thanks in advance!

 

[FishinMagician]

Sounds like the bendex is worn out. I'd replace the starter, but you may want to wait for more input from others.

 

[CJ]

Also note that Chevy small block starters may require shimming to maintain the proper mesh / gap between the starter and the flywheel.

 

[bondo258]

Sounds like a GM truck motor. To be sure, look for the VIN on the Pass. side, front of block. Behind the Alt. Stamped into the block ,flat surface the head bolts to. Numbers are facing up.

A few minutes of research on that number, should tell you more about your motor, And what parts are supposed to be on it. It may be possible , the wrong starter ended up on it, especially if the tranny, flexplate/flywheel isn't what came with the motor.

But definitely look up some GM starter shimming info and go that route, shimming (Little by little) first. It's almost always that, as CJ pointed out.

Your supposed to smash your fingers on a GM starter. Sounds like your on the right track.

 

[ColeTrickle]

Thank you all for the great replies! I will be investigating the engine shortly. I also will report back. I like to let those know who helped that their info was appreciated.

Don't ya just hate searching a thread and no one reports back saying it fixed the problem or not. Most times it does but I'd call that an assumption.

Thanks!

 

[ColeTrickle]

Well after much research over many hours I think I've found my engine.

1969 Chevelle Engine ID Codes

Seems that in 1968-69 they placed the engine ID # and partial VIN # next to each other on the pass. side of the block on the head surface. I also checked into the casting number and it basically gave me a 302, 327 or 350, which made me really confused.

Janesville, Wisconsin is the assembly plant it came out of. I was hoping to find what kind of auto it came out of, whether it be truck or car.

Anyways, looks like I got my motor ID'd.



Now back to the starter problem....
Does this look correct?
It doesn't have any shims but it has a gap between the starter and what looks like the rim of the starter that sits flush against it.

In other words it looks like this...



There's about a 1/8-1/4" gap in between the two mounting surfaces. Is this right?

 

[bondo258]

It doesn't look right to me. did the starter actually fit the hole in the bellhousing when it wasn't bolted?

Do you have two holes on the starter mount flange, or three?

Are the bolts snug inside the starter holes, or sloppy? You shouldn't be able to wiggle a "loose" starter. If you can wiggle the starter, with "loose" bolts something isn't right.

Some years came with holes for both starter styles. You have a large-flywheel starter, there, for a two-piece rear main block.(pre-85) The gear is the same, but the starter may not seat

Lets confirm if it's correct.

Post you motor ID/VIN # so we can be sure. Also if you could measure across the width of the ID pad on the block. Over 4in, around 3in., or under 2in.? This will help if the motor VIN isn't enough info.

You mentioned a casting number, this one below? If so Post it.

on the back of the block,against the firewall, facing up, behind the drv. side head, there is 7 digit casting number.



You have a T-176 tranny. I'm thinking the bellhousing isn't matched for your starter snout. you may have an auto tranny starter, instead of manual. Some numbers should be on pass side of bellhousing. if you can see them write them down.

 

[ColeTrickle]

It doesn't look right to me. did the starter actually fit the hole in the bellhousing when it wasn't bolted?

Do you have two holes on the starter mount flange, or three?

Are the bolts snug inside the starter holes, or sloppy? You shouldn't be able to wiggle a "loose" starter. If you can wiggle the starter, with "loose" bolts something isn't right.

Some years came with holes for both starter styles. You have a large-flywheel starter, there, for a two-piece rear main block.(pre-85) The gear is the same, but the starter may not seat

Lets confirm if it's correct.

Post you motor ID/VIN # so we can be sure. Also if you could measure across the width of the ID pad on the block. Over 4in, around 3in., or under 2in.? This will help if the motor VIN isn't enough info.

You mentioned a casting number, this one below? If so Post it.

on the back of the block,against the firewall, facing up, behind the drv. side head, there is 7 digit casting number.



You have a T-176 tranny. I'm thinking the bellhousing isn't matched for your starter snout. you may have an auto tranny starter, instead of manual. Some numbers should be on pass side of bellhousing. if you can see them write them down.

First off, thanks for replying back Bondo!

The starter actually bolts up to the engine ok. Seems that I have to start one bolt then kinda push the starter over and start the second. The starter feels snug, the holes don't feel sloppy. There are three bolt holes on the block but on this starter only two bolts get used.

Yes, the starter doesn't look like it fits the bellhousing that great. Like in the picture it looks as if the snout of the starter should fit inside "the groove" alot better.

The Chevy ID (Division ID #) is 18J202140 followed by the Engine ID # of V0206HC both numbers stamped on the pass. side of the block on the 4.25" head mating surface.

The casting number is 3914678.

I didn't see any numbers on the bell. Is there any place specific where I can find these numbers? Looks like a chevy bell but hey I'm only going by how well it mates to the engine block. And the strenghening rims in the housing.

From what I've gathered it seems that I have a 1969 Chevy 350 engine from a Camaro that the uncle of the PO installed cause he "might" have wanted a hot rod jeep...All this, at least the camaro and uncle anyways, is just my assumption .

BTW...I found a tag on the front diff that it has 3.07 gears! Is that possible stock? All I've read is 2.73, 3.31, 3.54, 4.11's.

I've been a Jeep fan long enough to know that with Jeeps, anythings possible!

 

[bondo258]

First the Motor. V= built in flint,02=Feb,06= Day,the suffix HC= a few codes, but because of the 4" stamp surface we can narrow it to a 1965 327 motor or a 1969 350 Camaro with M/T.

The three holes for the starter indicate it's more universal. The diagonal set is for large flywheel starters, the in-line set is used for smaller diameter flywheels. Yes, one hole is shared by both styles. so my vote is Camaro-1969. The heads and intake are almost always swapped out at some point, and we can't ID them without pulling the valve covers anyway, and it won't help with the starter issue anyhow.

The casting number is a widely used one, The only difference in the block of a 305, 327, and 350 is the diameter of the cylinder bore.This one was used on that year Camaro, but not the 327, according to my book.


The starter. The shroud around the gear, that supports the bendix shaft. come in different sizes. some folks swap only the shroud. rebuilt ones can get mixed up, too. If you have a bellhousing for a small diameter flywheel, an Manual Transmission flywheel must be used.

Gm starters almost always can be mixed and matched, with only shimming allowing the clearances needed. With an A/T starter, there's no room for the snout inside the smaller Manual bellhousings.

You can use #3899621 as an example of a bellhousing that doesn't work with a/t starters. There are a few others, I don't have that info.

You most likely want a Smaller flywheel, (small block) manual Transmission starter. for any gm vehicle of the era 1969-1984. It will bolt right in. You may not even need to add a shim, but get some anyway. Keep your old starter till this gets resolved.

If you want to confirm this, maybe some numbers can be found by removing the "shifter plate" on the tranny tunnel of your tub. Or on a pad near the fork linkage.

An aftermarket bellh. might have been purchased, too. to directly adapt the GM motor to the 176. Is there a plate between your Transmission box and the bellhousing?

 

[ColeTrickle]

Bondo, send me your address and I'll send you some Texas brew. You've been a great help in knowledge.

I found some more numbers. First set of numbers came off the GM flywheel. It has "GM 4" and further around the flywheel it has "3973458N" cast in it.

On the tranny itself on the passenger side theres a tag with "359390 RHCA 2301". Also, under the tranny hump cover on top of the Transmission theres a casting # of "C-2604208".

No plate, spacer or anything seperating the tranny and bell. I couldn't find any numbers or letters on the bell.

 

[bondo258]

That flywheel is a large (168 tooth) flywheel, I googled the numbers. and found it on some forums.

The Tranny ID isn't very important. We're concerned with the bellhousing, and flywheel at this point. No adapter means we could narrow down what bell housing it is. I know little about bellhousings, I'm not a Transmission guy.

Any GM starter from then will bolt into the block, and mesh properly with either a (154 or 168 tooth) flywheel. So...

Unless you have a "small flywheel bellhousing" (which I suspect you may) In which case, you need one meant for Standard transmissions, (which you should have, but may not) No point running your starter #, the parts are often mixed when rebuilding them.

Buy a starter for a Manual, large diam.(168 tooth) fly, chevy small block. Or a hi-torgue mini-starter, they don't have shrouds.


Um I don't remember, did you try the shimming suggested by CJ ?

 

[ColeTrickle]

Thanks Bondo, I think you have helped me out narrowing down what starter I need.

I haven't tried shimming the starter yet. With the condition of the gear of my current starter, I plan on getting another starter. Now I know what Should fit.

I haven't shimmed the current starter but after closer inspection it looks as if the starter needs shimming. "Looks" like it sits to close to the flywheel.

Thanks again, Bondo. It is comforting to know that fella's like you are still out there to help people like me out.
:driving:

 

[bondo258]

No problem. FYI most starters you can get now are sold as a Large 168/ Small154 And universal fit manual/automatic.

If you can, and don't mind spending some time with the parts guy (bring him the beer ), Some Corvette applications of Standard Transmissions and small block (350) also reguire this starter. Try finding it. Easier to find in a catalog than on the 'puter.

If you don't mind waiting a few days, the Mini starters can be found cheap (80-120$) on e-bay, and some national racing catalog web sites, as well.

The mini's are universal for anything you may have. No guessing. You may want to get some new starter bolts, though, to be "safe". I would.

No problem, just hit the thanks button.

 

[ColeTrickle]

Sorry for the lack of updates. Work is well...

Bondo, no I haven't shimmed. I tried to but this was not possible with this "original" starter. This particular starter has a "snout" that measures around 3 1/4" in diameter. After shimming, as suggested, I could even start a bolt much less get it to slide into the bell correctly. It was though I was wedging this starter into place. I simply said to myself...this ain't right!

So, today I tried to install the starter for a 1969 Camaro 350 with a manual Transmission . It slid into place just like it should. After thinking success, I started the bolt to find that they started to bottom out and the starter was still loose. I removed and measured this starters snout and found that it measured 2 3/4".


Well, for anyone with Chevy knowledge. What is the maximum number of shims that can be used? Or what is the maximum distance that a starter can be shimmed to?

Thanks.

 

[shortbus]

Shims Shims Shims, thats all there is to it.
chevy has a few options for bolt lengths as well.
you just have to play with them till you get them right.
ive had chevys all my life, you get used to it.

 

[ColeTrickle]

Going with a starter for a 1969 Camaro with a 350. I decided to go ahead and buy a starter bracket also for good measure. The starter doesn't fit the bellhousing perfectly but I can add shims if need be.

Just waiting on the bracket before I turn it over.

Crossed fingers!

 

[bondo258]

I've run over 1/4 in shims once, but i suspect you won't need nearly that many.

Find some shorter bolts, as shortbus suggested, or if there's no recess for the head, add a washer/lockwasher to find out the shims needed, then you can tell if the bolts are long enough or too long. Or cut em if you have a saw handy.

Also, yank the fuel pump fuse while getting the shim height correct. you don't want to risk binding the starter gear, onto a running motor.

 

[ColeTrickle]

Thanks Bondo! Thats a good idea about the fuse, but I don't have any gas or gas tank for that matter.

I got a few projects in the works. I recently pulled the drums off to find that the passenger side shoe was completely gone. The rivets had been keeping the jeep from braking!!!

Oh boy!

 

[ColeTrickle]

SUCCESS! Started it up with no grinding or chirping or nothing!

Not only that, I got it to idle! This jeep was supposingly sitting in a field for the last 12 years....I'm estatic!

Thanks all for the help.

Now I'm off to a different category to ask more questions.

 

[shortbus]

SWEET!