Novak transfer case adapter questions...

[76cj7chick]

Hey all.
I took some time off from building the cj so as to clear my head and then take another "look" at the engine swap so I can do it right the first time.

So, my questions are: which way does the gear go on to the Transfer Case adapter. (Can't find the directions that state either way). Can anyone who knows Novak adapter kits well let me know? I posted two pics. Do the little gears go up into the case or inside the adapter?

Also, any idea on what torque the nut on the adapter to the gear is supposed to be tightened too?

Thanks bunches..

 

[Hedgehog]

If it were me I'd take a good hard look at the Transfer Case . Those little knob gears must do something and I'm sure they would show an indexing gear or some such. If it was the other way around nothing could get to it. ...... another thing you can do, google search your Transmission and go to "Images". Generally in the hundreds of images you will find at least one that shows you exactly what you are looking for.

Edit: in your case I'd look up the or a Transmission that originally went in your CJ, the gear sticking out the back should be correct to stick in your Transfer Case (Dana 20 ?).

Edit #2: Did the search, this might help: http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/5527-jeep-gearbox-ratios/
Pay attention to the gear sticking out the back of the transmissions. The little gears are pointing to the rear.

 

[mriplaybass]

As Hedge said, if you are using a Dana 20 Transfer Case , the smaller gear on the bull gear does indeed engage the Dana 20 gear when shifted. I don't remember if it is high or low range, but the Transfer Case gear moves forward in order to engage the smaller gear in the bull gear cluster.

 

[76cj7chick]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I tried installing the gear on the adapter with the little "teeth" up too but it doesn't engage and leaves a 1/4" gap.
I will try again tomorrow.

I found an OLD picture of the AMC GM Turbo 400 auto tranny with the Dana 20 adapter that the cj originally had when I bought the jeep. I posted a couple pics of the adapter.
I tried to install the gear with the teeth facing out but then i cant get the adapter to sit flush against the tranfercase housing. Let me know why the gear ouput shaft "thingy" may not be resting flush in the tcase. Maybe there is a trick to install it????
Any ideas on how tight to torque the nut?

Perhaps the problem is the gear output? But that was the correct one according to Novak. As i gave them the number (and pic) on the old Transmission to tcase output gear.
And the adapter was purchased from Novak and its to marry a 1st gen GM th700r4 Transmission to a Dana 20 Transfer Case .


Thanks again for the help!!!!!!!

 

[mriplaybass]

Did you rotate the Transfer Case output shaft while trying to mate the two? What I consider to be the easiest thing to do when mating the Transmission to the Transfer Case is to shift the Transfer Case so that the gears directly in line with the Transmission bull gear are fully retracted and as far away from the bull gear as possible. That way you only have to worry about engaging the larger helical gear on the bull gear. Make sure your Transfer Case is engaged and not in neutral position, that way the gears will move as you rotate the output yoke. A little wiggling of the Transfer Case , and turning of the yoke should allow you to fully mate the 2. Put the bolts into the Transfer Case and finger tighten. Do not use the bolts to "draw" the Transfer Case and tranny together! Serious damage will occur. Just slowly move the Transfer Case around while turning back and forth on the yoke and continue to finger tighten the bolts until the t case is mated. I am not sure about the torque on the bull gear. I seem to recall around AMC 150 ft.lbs., but I am not certain on this number. I will try to look in one of our Jeep manuals today.

 

[Hedgehog]

Yep - A good gear wiggle can work wonders in a situation like this.

 

[Bent]

The main shaft gear is in the correct position. Torque the lock nut to 145 to 155 ft lbs. Remove the rear tail shaft and housing assembly and the rear sliding gear from the Transfer Case . Spline up the Transfer Case and bolt it to the Transmission . Install the sliding gear. Install the rear tail shaft and housing assembly. Rear tail shaft/bearing housing bolt torque is 28 to 32 ft lbs. If the rear yoke isn't torqued yet, it should be 225 to 250 for 1966 to 1978 and 90 to AMC 150 for 1979. Not sure why that's different. Anyhow, you're on your own for the Transfer Case to adapter plate bolt torque.
But the second set of pictures are not a typical Dana 20 set up. The second set has female threads and looks like maybe a 23 spline shaft? Maybe that's why the torque is listed different.

 

[76cj7chick]

Did you rotate the Transfer Case output shaft while trying to mate the two? What I consider to be the easiest thing to do when mating the Transmission to the Transfer Case is to shift the Transfer Case so that the gears directly in line with the Transmission bull gear are fully retracted and as far away from the bull gear as possible. That way you only have to worry about engaging the larger helical gear on the bull gear. Make sure your Transfer Case is engaged and not in neutral position, that way the gears will move as you rotate the output yoke. A little wiggling of the Transfer Case , and turning of the yoke should allow you to fully mate the 2. Put the bolts into the Transfer Case and finger tighten. Do not use the bolts to "draw" the Transfer Case and tranny together! Serious damage will occur. Just slowly move the Transfer Case around while turning back and forth on the yoke and continue to finger tighten the bolts until the t case is mated. I am not sure about the torque on the bull gear. I seem to recall around AMC 150 ft.lbs., but I am not certain on this number. I will try to look in one of our Jeep manuals today.

Okay. Appears it is in neutral. Too hard for me to change without hooking up the shifter unit. So well hook it up then try. I'll be sure to "wiggle" the adapter to see how it seats..

 

[76cj7chick]

The main shaft gear is in the correct position. Torque the lock nut to 145 to 155 ft lbs. Remove the rear tail shaft and housing assembly and the rear sliding gear from the Transfer Case . Spline up the Transfer Case and bolt it to the Transmission . Install the sliding gear. Install the rear tail shaft and housing assembly. Rear tail shaft/bearing housing bolt torque is 28 to 32 ft lbs. If the rear yoke isn't torqued yet, it should be 225 to 250 for 1966 to 1978 and 90 to AMC 150 for 1979. Not sure why that's different. Anyhow, you're on your own for the Transfer Case to adapter plate bolt torque.
But the second set of pictures are not a typical Dana 20 set up. The second set has female threads and looks like maybe a 23 spline shaft? Maybe that's why the torque is listed different.

You make it sound easy. Wish it was. Not for me.
I really wish I had asked Novak if they had a kit for jeep CJ7 and Gm th700r4 Transmission that didn't require cutting the tranny shaft... They were great in helping make a thicker spacer for the adapter but I worry that the splines won't be enough "teeth" to hold the tcase adapter to the tranny without chewing up something.

I was/am considering selling the Transfer Case (Dana 20 ) and Novak adapter to get the Dana 300 and adapter but I don't know if that adapter requires cutting the tranny shaft or not... Or if Novak, is willing to trade me all of the kits I bought from them and get the adapter kit for the Dana 300 to the th700r4.. But that may be a wishful thinking...
In all the years that Ive worked on this jeep, I have never been so stumped and frustrated... I don't want to install everything incorrectly and have bigger problems... :dunno::barf:

Just for the record, I'm not going to be able to take the Transmission apart.. I just know that. I wouldn't trust my ability alone.. if I had someone here guiding me, now that's a different story.

I read on Novak's site that the Dana 300 Transfer Case would need to be dismantled and a new shaft installed.. Now I CAN do that.. And if in doubt, it would be easier to transport a Transfer Case than a Transmission to a professional if needed. But I feel confident that I could take apart a simple Transfer Case and put it together correctly.
So if anyone has a Dana 300 they'd like to trade (or sell) me, I am listening. --Unless the Transmission shaft will require cutting too... In that case Id be stuck.
Sorry for my whining.. But this particular situation has been going on for I think about seven months...

I am also considering selling either the gm engine and tranny and adapter kits and then getting a jeep como again that doesn't require modifying the Transmission shaft... If any of you could let me know what combos fit my CJ7 , I may go that route.. I am willing to look at v8 engines too.. However, I want an automatic since it will be my dd...

(I already have been looking at Cherokee combos but it appears the axles are swapped from the CJ7 and so on the wrong side with the Transfer Case .)

Thanks all for your help!!!! Thanks Novak for your continued support..

 

[Hedgehog]

I know we've been through this and I'm sure you are sick of hearing it. You do have another option ....... Cut the shaft. You know that will work. Why back track completely, you are very close right now, you just need a little confidence. Also, for far less money than the expense you'd have in essentially starting over you could take your Transmission to a professional and have him/them cut the shaft and be done with it. You would also be on familiar or already traveled ground to move forward.

 

[76cj7chick]

I'd be willing to just swap out the Transfer Case to a Dana 300 if doing so wouldn't require cutting the Transmission shaft and if Novak would work with me by letting me trade all of the items for the Dana 300 adapter kits.. I can't find anywhere on their site that says the tranny shift has to be cut it replaced. If I am incorrect please let me know. If the tranny shaft does require mods then I may see if someone wants to trade or buy the Novak kit.

However I don't want to jump to any conclusions yet as I would like to hear from Eric. Anyone know Eric personally? I know he was very patient and helpful when I first had complications. But I don't want to ask of something unrealistic or unfair. But one would think he would say something to me if it were.

Well, I sent some emails to Novak, and will wait to see what they say.
Thanks hedgehog for the positive words but I think its important to know ones limitations and abilities and I am on this part of the project.

 

[Hedgehog]

Try this ... you probably have already, but if you haven't.

Measure the shaft length with adaptor in place..

Remove your adaptor. Accurately measure the length of the shaft. Subtract the length
they wanted you to cut off.

The tricky part will be to measure from the same relative point, the edge of the Transmission casting and the edge of the adaptor.

If both measurements come out to the same or darned close you should be good to go and you can rest assured that the spline length is correct. If not, you are probably right in not trusting what you have right now.

I know you don't trust your workmanship (lets leave the PC aspect of that statement out of it ) This is why I'd have a professional cut the shaft if I were you. Then you'd feel confident it was done correctly and can move on to the next issue. .... and there will be plenty of other issues.

 

[76cj7chick]

Try this ... you probably have already, but if you haven't.

Measure the shaft length with adaptor in place..

Remove your adaptor. Accurately measure the length of the shaft. Subtract the length
they wanted you to cut off.

The tricky part will be to measure from the same relative point, the edge of the Transmission casting and the edge of the adaptor.

If both measurements come out to the same or darned close you should be good to go and you can rest assured that the spline length is correct. If not, you are probably right in not trusting what you have right now.

I know you don't trust your workmanship (lets leave the PC aspect of that statement out of it ) This is why I'd have a professional cut the shaft if I were you. Then you'd feel confident it was done correctly and can move on to the next issue. .... and there will be plenty of other issues.

Hedgehog, I don't know of anyone who can or willing to make a house call to but the shaft. And I have no way to transport the Transmission . The cj is my only vehicle. Everyone i know doesn't have a proper vehicle to transport such a huge part. But there are other issues too.

Unfortunately Novak has not returned my emails. So may be on my own.

I do appreciate your help and everyone's but at this point I am disappointed with a company that 2 people didn't believe that the shaft needed to be cut but learned it did after I mock fitted the parts on the Transmission and informed them it didn't fit flush. And yes, they tried to work with me by sending a thicker spacer. But now I worry that the spacer is too thick and doesn't safely allow enough shaft to adapter contact.

I just dont understand why its so hard to offer an adapter (with a longer shaft and no spacer) by any aftermarket company that just bolts on. Especially for the price. :dunno:

I will go measure (again) and see if its doable but I really don't want to destroy the tranny or Transfer Case ..

I will keep you all informed as to if/how things go.

If anyone wants to buy/trade this adapter assembly from me, I would be willing to hear what you have to trade or pay for it all. Which includes the Dana 20 adapter, spacer, tranny bracket mount, energy suspension poly mount, the Dana 20 6 spline output gear, and my Dana 20 4wd Transfer Case . I've listed everything on cl and will on here too.

But I if Novak is willing to trade for the Dana 300 adapter and parts, I will delete. If they are willing to extend that courtesy, I will let everyone know and always be grateful. In fact I will post a bumpersticker on my CJ7 and advertise free for them!!!! And share their kindness and professionalizm on FB and where ever I can to whom ever I can. I will do this for at least one year. But keep the bumper sticker on my CJ7 for as long as I own the jeep and as long as the sticker lasts.
If this sounds reasonable, then let me know Novak! :grinjeep: (what you all think? Crazy,? Maybe. But also desperate to get back on the road!)

 

[Hedgehog]

Golly - I wish I could help, but it sorta sounds like you are painted into a bit of a corner. By the way, a Transmission will fit in a trunk or minivan.................. good luck.

 

[76cj7chick]

Well Novak has since emailed me. I expressed my concerns and ideas. Hopefully we can figure something out.

 

[76cj7chick]

WOW!!!!! Merry Christmas to everyone!!!

Novak has been working with me and allowed me to exchange the Dana 20 Transfer Case adapter for the Dana 300 adapter!!!!! That way I don't have to cut the Transmission shaft!!!

I got everything just a while ago and am impressed with the quality of the adapter and Transfer Case pan!! (And the adapter for the Dana 300 is cheaper so I was able to use the 'credit' towards other cool and needed parts!

I am very thankful that Eric was willing to work with me and had outstanding customer service from Jeff!

Can't wait to rebuild the Transfer Case and then slap it all together. I.will keep you all in the loop with the progress!
In the mean time, Have a Merry and Blessed Christmas!

 

[HackFabrication]

Merry Christmas!

You're better off with the Dana 300 , as it has better aftermarket support than the Dana 20 . Both are good, but IMHO, the 300 is the way to go. In hindsight, and there is a lot of it doing a build, I wish I had gone with the 300 over the stock 20 in my 76. Or a STaK...:drool:

 

[Hedgehog]

I am so very impressed with your persistence and the responses you've received from NOVAK. Impressed indeed! As Hack. said You will be happy with the 300 Transfer Case .

 

[Torxhead]

76cj7chick, good for you. Sounds like the squeaky wheel got the grease here. I tried for a few years to get by with just a CJ, but had to add in a pickup truck.

 

[76cj7chick]

Hi again!

Yup! I am thankful that Novak has such awesome support!
To help out the "new" builders they should have a disclaimer about the fact that the Dana 300 Transfer Case for the th700r4 adapter IS the better/easier way to go over the Dana 20 .

Also, I cleaned up the Dana 300 as it had a lot of grease and dirt on it. Only thing bad about it is the guy who traded me for my lokar floor shifter and led control box didn't tell me that the Transfer Case won't go into neutral. So may have to rebuild. Thankfully there is a detailed video on YTube.

In addition, after I cleaned up the case. Squirted the Allen head bolts with WD40, removed the bolts. The out-put shaft housing came out easily. My brother, having more muscles then me, removed the retaining C clip with the tool and the stubborn bigger clip.

Unfortunately I don't have a press so can't remove the bearings but a neighbor said he may be able to borrow one. So, waiting for that. Overall, the Dana 300 adapter requirements is way easier and specific than the Dana 20 .

In the future perhaps Novak will offer a adapter package where they combine new bearings, gears, and seals on the output shaft. That way, newbs wouldn't need a press to make the adapter work. But, that is not a big deal.

Now, I just got to wait to hear from my neighbor. If he can't borrow a press, anyone know of what type of shop would have a press that would allow me to use for free or low cost?

Thanks for all of your encouraging words! Will keep you all informed on the progress.

If I had a press, the adapter would be installed within an hour of the disassembling of the Transfer Case . But, that's okay, as its still way easier and faster for swap newbs.