starter engages too long

starter engages too long
E

efavalor

Jeeper
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Location
New Orleans, LA
Vehicle(s)
1983 CJ-7, 258 straight 6, T5, Dana 300
So, I have a problem I am hoping you fellas can help me out with. I have had an issue with my starter for a couple of years now. The problem is that when I go to crank my jeep the starter engages for an extended period of time causing a horrible racket. It never used to sound this terrible, and worse yet, it chews up the teeth on my ring gear and starter eventually. This only occurs when starting it and it disengages once it is running. To document what I have done to alleviate the problem: changed the starter three times now, flipped the ring gear around, put a spacer between the starter and Transmission , and put a brand new ring gear on. I have the third new starter and the new ring gear on it now and it still is causing a horrible racket whenever I start her up. Any hints? Could this have anything to do with the solenoid? The reason I am so confused is because there are not too many components that could be involved with this problem.
 
So, why don't you machine a bit off the starter mounting surface to make the gears mesh closer? Say .030" to start with and see if that helps.
 
Sounds like its probably hanging up like the other guy said.

Just to make sure its not something weird with the ignition switch or solenoid, Id put a test light/volt meter on the "crank" wire and make sure it has no power as soon as you let off on the key.

I was going to say that maybe someone left the block plate out at one time but you tried shimming it away so that shouldn't be it.

If its not an electric problem I guess you should try making it closer.

Do the bolt holes allow you to move the starter closer or further away--like side to side in relation to the truck?
 
Ok so you changed the starter and the starter solenoid several times, not sure what you meant when you said you flipped the ring gear around..................sounds like your starter in not in alignment with the ring gear.

That's normally the only thing that makes them grind and not disengage until the motor is running. You'll have to help me on this one does the starter bolt to the Transmission or the block? You mentioned a spacer where is that at?

Most starter alignment problems when attached to the block require a shim or two between the block & starter so that the starter gear is not engaging to deep into the ring gear. Basically moving the starter further away from the ring gear down on a vertical plane.
Check your holes that are used to bolt up are they worn to the point that the starter could be mounted a little crooked?
 
I sticking solenoid will do exactly this. And as far as I read, he does not say he has replaced the solenoid.


ps . . flipping a ring gear around means you remove it from the flywheel and install it from the other side.
 
Flipping the ring gear, I understood what he said I was just hoping that efavalor , would comment how he did that?..............not an easy task without the right equipment since most are pressed on when hot and others have tack welds on them. If it goes back on just a little off , could be a problem.
 
He did not say he changed the solenoid. He asked if the solenoid could be the problem. to this I say a very loud YES.:cool:

change that sucker :D
 
Well fellas, I appreciate the insight and different ideas, but unfortunately it isn't the solenoid. I just changed it today and still getting the same noise. The new ring gear I put on was assured to me to be correct by a man down here who has worked with jeeps all his life, he has a yard and rebuilds them; so I know its not the ring gear. It has been mentioned to me that the nose housing on the starter could be a problem in a reman starter and that Ford made a housing that fit on this Transmission . Anyone know of this or could tell me what type of starter you guys have?
 
Efavalor,

If the starter engages and bolts up,I doubt it could be the nose, unless the nose is somehow pushing the starter drive out of alignment when its engaged.
As I mentioned before about starter shims, check your ring gear and see what the starter engagement teeth pattern looks like on your ring gear.
Meaning: When you look at the teeth on the ring gear is the wear near the root or bottom of the gear? Not towards the outside open end of the gear but the point going towards the crankshaft?
If you are seeing wear there down in the root of the gear that is a sure indication of a need for a shim to lower the starter a little so the gear in not engaging so deep.
Check it out.
 
I don't recall ever running a spacer on any of the flywheels I've had off.

If I were you I'd pull the starter out and engage it on the ground.

This will ensure that the starter is operating correctly. I know its unlikely since you've changed the starter so many times, but I'd do it anyways. Maybe the ignition switch is faulty and its sending power to the starter after you let off on the key. Use a test light at the solenoid and have someone work the key for you.

Do you have factory everything on the vehicle? Bell, flywheel, etc?
Really rare to have the problem you are describing unless you have a faulty part or mismatched parts. Maybe see if the starter for the prior rear and following year is different. I've seen that happen but again, unlikely.

Only vehicles I've seen that have starter shims are old chebies.

If this started on its own without you changing something, I really can't see it needing a shim, different flywheel, starter, etc. Look at something on the vehicle that could be faulty.
 
Hi all,

I think I may be having a similar issue. I just bought my first automobile a week ago, a 1981 Jeep CJ7 rock crawler with a AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l - Inline 6. It ran just long enough to get home before crapping out.

The starter died so I bought a new one. When cranking the new one it sounded like whirring and grinding. Like the Bendix couldn't go into the bell housing far enough to engage with the Fly wheel. The grinding was coming form the tip of new starter housing where the F wheel was shaving off fresh metal (see scrapes on the pic I attached). So i looked at the old starter and could see where the F Wheel had ground down the housing on the tip (attached pic of this as well). In fact on the old one you can see it engages just barely with the tip of the bendix and mostly with the starter housing (thus grinding out the shape you see).

I also attached a pic of the flywheel teeth which are a little hard to see but were only engaging with the old starter barely.

So If you don't mind I have a couple of questions:


  • Does the damage to the ring gear look bad enough to warrant replacing?
  • I see a lot of posts about shimming the starter to get it further out. Has anyone heard about getting the starter closer (i think this is the primary problem)? If so how do you do it?
I replaced the Solenoid as well with the new starter as it seemed like good practice.


I also attached a pic of the Jeep. I picked it up for $2,500 does that seem like a decent deal if I can get it running again?


Thanks again for your help!:)
 
Is the first picture your old starter? and the second the new?
What I see in your first picture is that the starter drive is engaging deep enough as witnessed by the shiny gear contact you see about 3/4" back.........the starter drive gear tip is semi helical cut, meaning it is has a couple of angles on the tip so it engages the ring gear easier as its spinning. Keeping that in mind if the starter drive gear continues to eat itself up the starter may not be aligned to the ring gear in order to engage properly. It's really hard to see all from here. Depth at least in your first picture is not the problem.
 
I don't see any problem with your ring gear..........at least in that picture.
Question: when you mount that starter is there enough slop in the bolts or the case which would allow it to move around say 1/16 +/- in either direction?
 
Read somewhere a while back putting a dedicated ground to a starter mount bolt may help remedy this. Everything in a CJ seems to be a ground related, so it stuck with me.

Not sure of the reasoning for this, just throwing it out there.

And an easy test of your starter circuit, lock cylinder- to the solenoid is to

disconnect the starter.

disconnect your horn.

run jumper from starter solenoid to horn. Great way to check for lag in "shut off" time.
 
efavalor said:
So, I have a problem I am hoping you fellas can help me out with. I have had an issue with my starter for a couple of years now. The problem is that when I go to crank my jeep the starter engages for an extended period of time causing a horrible racket. It never used to sound this terrible, and worse yet, it chews up the teeth on my ring gear and starter eventually. This only occurs when starting it and it disengages once it is running. To document what I have done to alleviate the problem: changed the starter three times now, flipped the ring gear around, put a spacer between the starter and Transmission , and put a brand new ring gear on. I have the third new starter and the new ring gear on it now and it still is causing a horrible racket whenever I start her up. Any hints? Could this have anything to do with the solenoid? The reason I am so confused is because there are not too many components that could be involved with this problem.
Click to expand...

Sorry Im a lil late to this party and got lost with the posts.

your starter is engaging and not releasing yes? there 3 things that can cause this problem.

#1 your solenoid is bad. but you have replaced it
#2 Your key is not returning all the way and leaving it on. The key pushes a lever which slides a part that makes contact with the ignition switch on the column. IF that lever gets gummed up or :dung: in it over time it will stick. I chased this same issue down a few months ago on a buddies. Try jumping it off your solenoid instead of using the key switch. If it starts fine and doesnt stay engaged you have an issue in the column. If you crawl under your dash and look at the column you can see the rod. Spray some WD-40 on it where it moves and it should fix it.
#3 Starter is sticking.. but like you said you replaced the started so that should not be it either.

If your problem is the gears not aligning properly and grinding then thats whole nother issue.

I have a few columns in the shop and can take a pic or two of the rod if you need some.

Heres a pic I found on the net. I stole it from this site, Tilt Steering Column Wobble. There can also be a wear,alignment problem with the swich its self.
 
AZCJFan said:
Hi all,

I think I may be having a similar issue. I just bought my first automobile a week ago, a 1981 Jeep CJ7 rock crawler with a AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l - Inline 6. It ran just long enough to get home before crapping out.

The starter died so I bought a new one. When cranking the new one it sounded like whirring and grinding. Like the Bendix couldn't go into the bell housing far enough to engage with the Fly wheel. The grinding was coming form the tip of new starter housing where the F wheel was shaving off fresh metal (see scrapes on the pic I attached). So i looked at the old starter and could see where the F Wheel had ground down the housing on the tip (attached pic of this as well). In fact on the old one you can see it engages just barely with the tip of the bendix and mostly with the starter housing (thus grinding out the shape you see).

I also attached a pic of the flywheel teeth which are a little hard to see but were only engaging with the old starter barely.

So If you don't mind I have a couple of questions:


  • Does the damage to the ring gear look bad enough to warrant replacing?
  • I see a lot of posts about shimming the starter to get it further out. Has anyone heard about getting the starter closer (i think this is the primary problem)? If so how do you do it?
I replaced the Solenoid as well with the new starter as it seemed like good practice.


I also attached a pic of the Jeep. I picked it up for $2,500 does that seem like a decent deal if I can get it running again?


Thanks again for your help!:)
Click to expand...


When you took the original off was there spacers or shims behind it? Do you have a good charge on the battery? If there is not enough amps being pushed out by the battery the starter wont fully engage.

As long as your tub and frame are not rotted out &2500 is nt a bad price for the jeep in my opinion.
 
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