Starter!!!

[BurgJeep]

Ugh. So after a weekend of work tapping a spark plug hole, bleeding brakes, and finally realizing I had a blown fuse and two wires pulled from the alternator, I get the old girl to crank over and what do I get? The starter grind!!! So I try tapping on the starter to no avail. I go and pick up a new starter, after pulling the other and seeing the teeth are ground to hell.

Drop the new starter in and just the same noise, except with a bit deeper pitch. WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Shouldn't the started have solved my problem? Why would the gear keep grinding? Do I have it improperly aligned (is that possible?) Is my flywheel ****ed? Do I just not have it torqued down enough?

 

[Bowbender]

I suspect the ring gear is ground up as well. Were you able to get a peek at it before you installed the new starter?

 

[Robs85cj7]

Inspect the ring gear by yanking the starter back out and turning the engine over by hand. Mark a spot on the flywheel before turning with a chaulk or sharpie marker so you don't cover the same ground twice

 

[BurgJeep]

Well I pulled the starter again. On initial inspection, the flywheel gears look to be in good shape. However, I honestly have no clue on how to turn the engine over by hand. What's the process for that look like?


Here's what I'm looking at on the flywheel. Looks fine to me. No major grounded portions.

 

[strycnine]

You could have a friend turn the engine over with a socket wrench on the crankshaft.

 

[Robs85cj7]

I've seen bad flywheels that look good like your pic, but in a 1/4 rotation of the engine it all goes to hell. 1/2 ratchet or breaker bar and a socket that fits on the harmonic balancer bolt makes easy work of turning an engine over. E-brake on and wheels chocked, Transmission in neutral. If you want an easier time of it, remove the spark plugs to avoid compression resistance.

 

[BurgJeep]

So, it finally warmed up enough to get some work done. Turned on the harmonic balancer a few rotations. I found some teeth in the flywheel that were chewed up a bit, but overall not real terrible (or so I think :dunno.

I figure this has to be my issue though, because if it were a solenoid issue then I would just hear a single click and not a bunch of continuous clicks. Right? And it can't really be a battery power issue if every time I've jumped it I've had it hooked up to the jumpers. Right?

Is there a possibility that the starter just isn't lined up right? It should just be 2 bolt kinda deal right?

And is there a write up on this ring gear replacement? I've never done anything this advanced before! I thought helicoiling a spark plug hole the other week was advanced! Hahahaha fuk it!

 

[JR74CJ5]

If your solinoid is "clicking" you have a wiring short or the battery does not have enough juice (even while being jumped) to turn the engine over. Bad grounds are a possibility as well.

If the noise is more like what you described at first, a grinding miss alignment "could" be the problem. Or a bad starter (which does happen even with a new replacement off the shelf).

If it's more of a free-spin / whirl / grind sound, then it's not turning the flywheel, but at that point you should have seen some bad gears...

However, you saying the first starter you pulled had "chewed up" gears, is not making me feel the fly-wheel / ring-gear really is in good shape... at least at points on it...

 

[BurgJeep]

Hrmph. My room mate got out there with me and listened to the noise.

Turns out from the echo of the cab and the garage I was misinterpreting the noise to be coming from the starter. The clicking noise was coming from the solenoid. I went and replaced the solenoid (which I didn't do when I did the starter) and to no avail. I still get the same clicking noise.

So I got the battery on the charger, gonna see what that finds me tomorrow. I'm gonna get it load tested at autozone or what not tomorrow. See what that results in. Then should she pass from there I'll throw it in the old pig. See what I get with the charged battery and the jumper cables on it.

I did notice one of the wires that lead from the solenoid to the firewall (iirc) was pretty warm. And it's not as if it could have been engine heat either! Since the engine hasn't been running! :laugh: That leads me to suspect a wiring short somewhere. Correct? I've never been real fine on this wiring stuff, but I guess it's time to learn.

 

[Robs85cj7]

Def make sure that the battery is good. Buddy of mine had the same symptoms as you and turns out it was the battery. Even with it connected to a battery charger set to "jump start" all it did was click the solenoid like a machine gun. He swapped out that battery for a good one and it kicked right over and idled. Get a known good battery, check your ground connections, make sure the braided ground cable is connected brtween the engine mount and frame(important) found on passenger side usually and go from there. I've had countless electrical gremlins get chased away after discovering that the flat braided ground cable has been tossed or not put back on during an engine swap or motor mount change.

 

[thistle3585]

I had the exact same thing, and did the same thing you did, and it ended up being the battery. The shop, who was familiar with my Jeep, told me they thought the ignition switch that the PO had put in incorrectly damaged the battery. They tested it and it was at 60% but still struggled to turn over.

 

[Torxhead]

Def make sure that the battery is good. Buddy of mine had the same symptoms as you and turns out it was the battery. Even with it connected to a battery charger set to "jump start" all it did was click the solenoid like a machine gun. He swapped out that battery for a good one and it kicked right over and idled. Get a known good battery, check your ground connections, make sure the braided ground cable is connected brtween the engine mount and frame(important) found on passenger side usually and go from there. I've had countless electrical gremlins get chased away after discovering that the flat braided ground cable has been tossed or not put back on during an engine swap or motor mount change.

Better yet you could trash that steel braided pos for a copper cable that is a better conductor of electricity. In this case here that braided cable is not a factor for starter operation.

 

[Robs85cj7]

thanks Torxhead, good point...just trying to nip any other electrical problems in the bud. I figured while he was in the neighborhood of the starter he could check that too.

 

[BurgJeep]

So I charged the battery last night. It left it with enough juice to slightly turn it over. Just barely. From there I figured out it was the battery, so I ran down to autozone and got a new battery. Threw it in and got the old pig running with a bit of starting fluid on the first crank!

Shortly after though the old carder decided she did wanna let any gas through and mrs. piggy decided to die. So I went to crank it back up, and just a click. Dammit, not even the machine gun noise like before. Just a click. I must be losing power somewhere, right? So that leads me to believe that there is a short or a bad ground somewhere, correct?

I plan on checking the grounds and what not this afternoon to include that braided cable (or possible lack thereof).

 

[JR74CJ5]

While I think the battery is one of the fixes, i believe you main problem is in the wiring...

A new battery should have been able to start it a while before drained too much to turn it over again... something is not right...

You may have a severe short that could potentially damage the new battery. Or you might just have a loose connection screwing with you... take the terminal connector to battery off and re connect it. you should at least get another "click" if not turning over again. it's sounding loose for sure...

when you hook up the battery cables to the battery, does it "spark" bad? a little spark is "ok" (technically i believe it means there is a draw on it somewhere) but a large one or anything smoking under the hood is a dead giveaway of a current reversal / or something no good!

otherwise, as I've said, take all the starting circut connections off, inspect and clean them one by one. Make sure the positive and negative battery terminal connections are nice and tight (wire to connector) not loose and sloppy.

Wire-brush and clean all grounds close! Wire brush and clean all positives too...

From there replace any connections you find loose or faulty / burned looking.

from there maybe take some pictures of how everything is hooked up at the battery, solenoid, and starter and post them up. Maybe something will jump out at one of the members here that might give you and idea.

You may even check all the alternator circuit wires as well while you are at it... and coil / distributor wires too.

From there, at least you'll know all the connections are good and solid. and we can all go from there.

Also, if you dont have one, a book and volt-meter will come in handy...



~ Jr

 

[BurgJeep]

I think I may have chased it down!

I started chasing connections and what not. I had a ground wire connection that went to the firewall with nothing on the other side. Problem being that it is a fiberglass tub! So that was a useless connection. I also had a ground wire connection going to all of nowhere. And I had two wires leading from the ground terminal to the alternator.

I reduced that to one wire and got myself a new ground terminal cable, since my other one was just barely reaching the new battery. And she started right up on the jump charger.

I then let her run for half an hour, and then she started right up again. Another half hour and the same! So I let her sit for a few hours and she started right up again. Mind you, yesterday all of this would have been unthinkable. So, I'm letting her sit over night to see if she holds the charge and cranks over over night.

 

[JR74CJ5]

:booze:

Let us know how it goes!


~ Jr

 

[BurgJeep]

Started right up again this afternoon! I think we can call this a success!

For your guys' time:

Now I can go drive this pig as soon as I get this banjo bolt in the mail!