Suggestions

[Duane]

I posted some pics in the member's gallery of the suspension and steering of my new toy. I am looking for suggestions as to what I might look at first to fix a very loose steering problem and get rid of possible "accidents waiting to happen". If anyone needs any other picture angles or any more info, I will gladly oblige. Thanks in advance. http://www.jeep-cj.com/gallery/files/8/9/4/dsc00304.jpg

1. I am not sure if the PO put a dropped pitman arm on or left the stock one. You can see in one of the pics the tie rod (drag link?) looks bent.

2. Shackles look suspect to me also, but I am not a leaf guy yet.

3. Does the steering linkage, minus the stabilizer look stock or has it been replaced and if replace any ideas of what it might be.

4. On my Rubi, there was a stabilizer bar on the rear as well as the front. There is not one on the CJ. Is this normal?

Any and all suggestions will be accepted. Fire away..

 

[coldwater]

Good lord!! Yeah, that front end is a mess. You need to lose that disaster of a drag link/ pitman arm/ death trap, and go to a dropped pitman arm just to get started. It's actually bent at the tie end, and is not safe. I would also change out the rod ends and you will need a new drag link to replace the mess the PO cobbled up.

 

[Duane]

Good lord!! Yeah, that front end is a mess. You need to lose that disaster of a drag link/ pitman arm/ death trap, and go to a dropped pitman arm just to get started. It's actually bent at the tie end, and is not safe. I would also change out the rod ends and you will need a new drag link to replace the mess the PO cobbled up.

does it look stock or has it been replaced

 

[coldwater]

That's a home made attempt at getting by cheap. It's not strong enough to handle the stress of those tires, and is too long in the bends. A dropped pitman arm is what it should have, not that thing.

 

[CJ]

Hello Duane!

You have a decent start but need to fix that geometry (as was stated)...

Since you have a SOA, the best and easiest thing to do is pick up a new linkage kit and do a 'Tie Rod' flip.

There are many good steering kits out there ( I just purchased this one -->> SRC Precision Tie Rod Steering System Kit - Jeep-CJ Reviews) and CW bought another brand. They all wor ver well but his was already powder coated!

As for the flip, here is a post that shows some great shots of how it straightens out that steering geometry. -->> http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/my-350-v8-swap-cj7-1747/#post12678

 

[coldwater]

I may have been a little harsh. You do have a good start, and the fix isn't hard or terribly expensive. But as in many mods on a Jeep, things can get rushed and skimped on. In your case, the steering. But is done incorrectly, and needs to be fixed.

 

[Duane]

Hello Duane!

You have a decent start but need to fix that geometry (as was stated)...

Since you have a SOA, the best and easiest thing to do is pick up a new linkage kit and do a 'Tie Rod' flip.

There are many good steering kits out there ( I just purchased this one -->> SRC Precision Tie Rod Steering System Kit - Jeep-CJ Reviews) and CW bought another brand. They all wor ver well but his was already powder coated!

As for the flip, here is a post that shows some great shots of how it straightens out that steering geometry. -->> http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/my-350-v8-swap-cj7-1747/#post12678

So start with a dropped pitman arm (for a 4" lift?) new linkage and do the flip for starters.

How will I know if the steering box is stock for the new pitman? The ignition key is a chevy and the column does not look like a jeep thing.

 

[Duane]

I may have been a little harsh. You do have a good start, and the fix isn't hard or terribly expensive. But as in many mods on a Jeep, things can get rushed and skimped on. In your case, the steering. But is done incorrectly, and needs to be fixed.

No worries CW. I took no offense as I did not do it to begin with and I appreciate all advice/input. What steering setup did you go with?

 

[CJ]

If you take the linkages off and lay them on top of the knuckles simulating how a flip would work, you can measure how much of a drop arm you need.

Also, pull the arm and take a look at how many wide flats are inside of the splined area. That will tell you (us) what type of arm you should by...

 

[CJ]

BTW - Here is a shot of just about a perfect steering setup (Old Dogs CJ). Notice how everything is level and straight? You don't have to get it this perfect but the closer the better...

Tie Rod & Draglink Flip - Tierod & draglink flip with stock pitman arm, U-bolt flip Jeep-CJ Gallery

 

[Petescj]

If you do a tie rod flip odds are pretty good you'll just need a stock pitman arm , not a drop one. Take it apart and line it up as well as you can in the new postion and then youll be able to see.

 

[Petescj]

Oh and as far as the key being a Gm key thats normal for a replacement key. You'll find as you go over your Jeep its a probably cobbled together fom other manufacturers. Amc had a tendency to do that.

 

[coldwater]

Yup, the column is a GM unit, used on any old chevy of the same vintage. The Steering box will brobably be a Saganaw unit, and the rest on the front end will be good ol jeep. The main problem with yours is that someone has taken a hollow tube and bent it to fit, then cut the ends fron the original drag link, and welded them into the bent tube. there is so much torque on it that it has bent one end pretty badly. Big ol tires mean big ol front end parts to handle them. I got my drag link and tie rod from here. Exellent quality, very reasonable. I didn't need to flip mine, but my lift is only 2.5"
18050.80 - Rugged Ridge - Heavy Duty Monster Steering Linkage Full Kit (2 Tubes & 4 Tie Rod End) For Narrow-Track 1972-83 Jeep CJ5 & 1976-81 CJ7 : Tellico 4x4

 

[Duane]

If you take the linkages off and lay them on top of the knuckles simulating how a flip would work, you can measure how much of a drop arm you need.

Also, pull the arm and take a look at how many wide flats are inside of the splined area. That will tell you (us) what type of arm you should by...

When I lay the linkage across the top, it is laying on the springs with no chance of bolting it down for the flip. The rod ends aren't even hitting the mounting flange. Do I need some sort of spacer?

Also the part that is not connected to the steering box (tie rod?) is pretty beefy and I think that I could get by with just adding new rod ends and a new drag link (the one that connects to the steering box and was bent). Not sure if I have the names right. LOL

I have to go get a 1 5/16" socket to remove the pitman so I may be on hold till later...

 

[CJ]

Sorry, I guess I should have been a little clearer... You will need to space the tie rod ends from the knuckle the same distance as they were when they were installed with the tie rod end on the bottom. Then see what you have.

As far as reusing the link from the box to the arm... That is a big No No... That is one of the biggest problems you have. That link is supposed to be straight...

 

[Duane]

Sorry, I guess I should have been a little clearer... You will need to space the tie rod ends from the knuckle the same distance as they were when they were installed with the tie rod end on the bottom. Then see what you have.

As far as reusing the link from the box to the arm... That is a big No No... That is one of the biggest problems you have. That link is supposed to be straight...

More confused than ever. (which is not hard)

First off which is which? Does the tie rod tie both tires together and does the drag link connect to the steering box?

Second I thought I knew what you meant by a flip, but mine does not seem to work as proposed. If i flip the part that connects both wheels to where the bolt is now on the bottom of the knuckle (I am assuming this is the that the rod ends bolt into at the wheel) instead of the top like it was, it will hit the springs. The rod end bolts are not long enough to go through the knuckle and be positioned over the springs. There is also not enough room to position the nut on bottom and go under the springs. does that make any sense? I can try to take a pic if that would help.

 

[CJ]

Well, after looking at your setup (your picture closer My Cj - Just some pics Jeep-CJ Gallery ), because of SOA it looks like (as you stated) you can't flip the drag link but you should flip the tie rod connection between the pitman arm and the RH knuckle..

As you said, flipping the link hits the springs. If you leave the center link under the spring and flip the link between the pitman arm and the knuckle, will that work?

You jave to get rid of that damn z bar connection you have...

And yes - closer pictures will always help...

 

[coldwater]

More confused than ever. (which is not hard)

First off which is which? Does the tie rod tie both tires together and does the drag link connect to the steering box?

Second I thought I knew what you meant by a flip, but mine does not seem to work as proposed. If i flip the part that connects both wheels to where the bolt is now on the bottom of the knuckle (I am assuming this is the that the rod ends bolt into at the wheel) instead of the top like it was, it will hit the springs. The rod end bolts are not long enough to go through the knuckle and be positioned over the springs. There is also not enough room to position the nut on bottom and go under the springs. does that make any sense? I can try to take a pic if that would help.

The drag link is the part that goes from the steering box, to the knuckle on the passengers side. The tie rod, is the one that ties both steering knuckles together so both wheels will turn. Your drag link is the bigget problem, because It's a home made bent up mess, and not strong enough to handle the steering torque place on it. Imagine the force being placed on that bent pipe when the steering box tries to turn those big tires and you can see the problem. Any movement will transfer into your jeep wandering all over. A straight big diameter rod is what is needed so there is no flex. As far as the tie rod flip, I have never done one, so I cant offer advice to you. But it may be that with a spring over conversion, you may need a high steer axle. I'm sure someone here will correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

[CJ]

CW is 100% correct. Because of the SOA you cannot flip the tie rod but you should be able to flip the drag link. If you keep the pitman arm short enough, the the angle from the piman to the knuckle should be great enough to clear the spring (and still clear under full articulation).

The BIGGEST thing we have to do is get rid of that z bar!

 

[Duane]

Got the pitman off. It has 4 flats.

I tried to flip the drag link but it hits the passenger side spring big time.
If i run everything the way it was (all nuts on top) and measure from the stock pitman to where the link would lay it is approx 6-7 inches of drop. If I measure from the stock pitman down to the drag link approx 4 inches it is real close to the bottom of the spring (about 1/2" clearance). If I install a pitman that has 6 or 7 inches of drop, the drag link would be parallel with the tie rod which I think is what is needed. I took some pics of the angle of the 4 inch drop but need some help uploading them. I would guess it is about 30 degrees.