Warn Winch - Draining Bat?

[JR74CJ5]

Hey guys...

Just in case, http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f7/warn-power-cut-off-switch-11234/

Wired up a new warn winch (M8000) a little while back. Did as instructions stated, and wired the positive and negative leads direct to bat. I also at the same time wired in the Warn wireless remote control box, also following the instructions... Now I plan on putting in a cut off switch, as the above link suggests from my previous thread, but I am wondering why all of a sudden after doing this install is my battery draining dead?

I have fully charged the battery on 2A trickle cycle, and replaced and cleaned up all the battery connections, including the post connections themselves. Re cut and stripped new portion of the main ground and power wires for the whole jeep.

The alt is (i am almost positive) working as it should. Haven't done the unhook bat cable while running test, in a while at least...

So I am kinda lost... What is causing this? I assume the winch, since only started happening after it was installed, aftermarket stereo is and has been installed for some time now, and nothing else electrical has changed.

Unless my battery has been slowly loosing charge capacity since the ignition upgrade a few months back...

I keep the wireless control plug disconnected from the winch solenoid.



Any Ideas?

Winch Warn Industries - Jeep, Truck & SUV Winches: M8000
Wireless Remote: http://www.warn.com/truck/accessories/images/1142/76085-A3.pdf




~ JR

 

[CJ]

I would disconnect the power cable to the winch first, see if it still drains.

 

[JR74CJ5]

I would disconnect the power cable to the winch first, see if it still drains.

Yes this was my plan too... Just didn't understand how or why it would... But would be better to be sure first before contacting Warn i suppose

 

[73CJ]

Is the receiver wired to power from the ignition source?

Only powered on with the key?

 

[CJim7]

I wired my 8274 to the input side of the starter solenoid and the ground to the engine block. I've never had an issue with the winch draining the battery.

 

[JR74CJ5]

Is the receiver wired to power from the ignition source?

Only powered on with the key?

No. I wired the winch itself with negative and positive large leads direct to the battery. I believe I wired the wireless module direct to the battery too. I need to re-look at the directions for each. I have unhooked it completely as it (again I assume) killed batt, and The Alt (again assuming from this) dies this last weekend from overworking it...

I'll look into this more as I have just purchased a new Red top Ultima and new Alternator...

I wired my 8274 to the input side of the starter solenoid and the ground to the engine block. I've never had an issue with the winch draining the battery.

Yeah need to check out what I did wrong. I am assuming it is do to something I did. Probably pretty rare to get a defective Warn winch

 

[BusaDave9]

You must have a short draining the battery. It sounds like the main (if not only) thing that has changed lately is the winch.
First step is to follow CJ's advice and disconnect the winch to see if that is what is draining the battery.

I would disconnect the power cable to the winch first, see if it still drains.

 

[SrBeaver]

If you wired the wireless receiver direct that will drain the battery easily, the need to be hooked to a keyed power source only powered up while the key is in the on or accessory position, if not it will constantly be drawing power "waiting" to do it's job of controlling the winch. The winch itself can be wired directly to the battery, which is the most common way and odds of getting a defective winch, slim, could it be, yep. Most likely gonna be the wireless.

 

[JR74CJ5]

If you wired the wireless receiver direct that will drain the battery easily, the need to be hooked to a keyed power source only powered up while the key is in the on or accessory position, if not it will constantly be drawing power "waiting" to do it's job of controlling the winch. The winch itself can be wired directly to the battery, which is the most common way and odds of getting a defective winch, slim, could it be, yep. Most likely gonna be the wireless.

That actually makes pretty good sense...


~Jr

 

[BusaDave9]

If the receiver isn't being activated it should never drain the battery. Most cars nowadays have keyless entry waiting for someone to unlock the door with the fob. They use much less electricity than a clock, especially an mechanical clock like those on some CJs. With an analog clock and keyless entry you should be able to leave your vehicle for months without draining the battery.
I would double-check wiring. Then start disconnecting things to see where the drain is.

 

[JR74CJ5]

Thanks Busa That also makes good sense...

I realize I am pretty noobish about this stuff (electrical). I'm learning a lot now about it... Please bare with a few more, probably redundant questions / clarifications...

I have installed a new Battery and Alternator as of yesterday. I re-hooked up the winch wiring because I needed to reel in the line (another story, short version couldn't real it in last time was out due to batt and alt failure) so...

Wondering If I am making this too complicated in my head... Should I just check Batt voltage with a multi-meter and check it the next day after sitting, to see if it has dropped. (with everything installed) My worry now is that the new battery and alt was what was needed, and possibly Batt just wasn't holding a good charge anymore, was loosing it by itself?? Is that possible? And if so that if i unhook the winch now (and its already fixed with new batt) I'll assume it was the cause, when it wasn't, or on the flip side I'll start draining this brand new 250.00 Ultima Battery...

Or is it possible my alternator (stock 37 amp output I assume, was on when bought) could never keep up with the new ignition system mod I recently did (MSD Streetfire box, DUI distributor, .050 gaped SP), so the battery kept becoming lower and lower in charge? Killed a cell? The battery was also extremely old... like possibly 1997 or 07... (was in from PO, and think it may have had a 1997 date sticker on it...) Can't remember, but was time for a new one...

I am going to sit down tonight with the wiring install instructions for the winch, wireless control box, MSD Box. Check over everything good...

I am also going to take a voltage reading from the battery, and leave the jeep un started / touched until tomorrow after work (approx 24 Hr's) to see if the voltage reading changes. This should show me if I still have a draw correct?

Sorry so long winded...

~ JR

 

[BusaDave9]

That old battery very well may have been the problem. I would just keep an eye on it and see if the battery goes dead any more.

 

[BusaDave9]

I don't like the idea of checking the voltage on a battery to see if it has experienced a current drain since it has been charged last. To check for a current drain you need to check current. To do that you need to put the meter in line with the circuit. What I mean by that is you have to remove the minus terminal of the battery. Put one lead of your meter on the battery and one lead on the battery cable. If there is any current drain it will have to go through the meter. That's the way to check for current drain.
I say just wait and see how your jeep starts.

 

[JR74CJ5]

I don't like the idea of checking the voltage on a battery to see if it has experienced a current drain since it has been charged last. To check for a current drain you need to check current. To do that you need to put the meter in line with the circuit. What I mean by that is you have to remove the minus terminal of the battery. Put one lead of your meter on the battery and one lead on the battery cable. If there is any current drain it will have to go through the meter. That's the way to check for current drain.
I say just wait and see how your jeep starts.

Now to do this Dave, my multimeter has many settings... Am I still looking for Voltage? Theoretically it would show 0 if no current draw with the key in the off position, or a very small amount for the radio led blinking light etc? But a larger amount would suggest a current draw?

What is the reasoning behind not checking voltage at the battery itself? When I checked it last night it read 12.41v so my theory was if I check it tonight, and it's lower it would still be draining correct? Most definitely not arguing with you Dave, just curious... You know me, Always want to learn... Is it variations due to temperatures, or something similar?



~ JR

 

[Old Dog]

JR. if I were you I would pull the fuse on the radio and anything else that uses elect. with the key shut off. That way you should get no reading at all.
As a quick test I take my pos. wire off the battery and use a test light from the termanal to the post, if it lights up you have a short.

 

[BusaDave9]

What is the reasoning behind not checking voltage at the battery itself? When I checked it last night it read 12.41v so my theory was if I check it tonight, and it's lower it would still be draining correct?

~ JR

If we are suspecting current is draining from your battery then we should check current (measured in amps) not voltage.
Voltage is the potential to do work.
Current is the electron flow.
Power is the voltage multiplied by the current.

To make sense of electricity let me make an analogy. Let's say we have a big water tank like a water tower. At the bottom of this tank is a hose that sprays out on the ground. If the tank is deep with water, that would relate to high voltage. The hose coming out the bottom of the tank better be strong. (a high voltage wire needs a bigger insulation). When you open the valve on the end of the hose water will come rushing out with so much pressure that you could spin a water wheel. If you had a big hose connected to a tall (deep) tank then that water wheel could power a hoist or small mill or do other work.

Now lets compare this analogy to your situation. You suspect current is flowing when it shouldn't. You say “we should go to the top of the tank and measure how deep it is” (voltage)
Well, I guess we could let it sit for 24 hours and then see if the water level has gone down. Then we might be able to assume that there was current flow out the hose.
Too many assumptions. We should go down to the hose and actually measure the current flow. That would tell us immediately if current was flowing.

Voltage is a difference in potential. You need to use both leads of a volt meter. The black lead is usually put on ground (the minus side of the battery). The red lead is used to check the voltage.

For the water analogy we could use a pressure meter. One lead would be placed at the top of the tank where there is no pressure. The other lead could be placed down as deep as where the hose is connected. If it is a deep tank it will read high pressure.

Current is water flow. (or electron current flow). For a amp meter to measure current you must disconnect the electrical circuit and put the meter in line. The current must flow through the meter. In the water analogy you would have to disconnect the hose and put the current meter in line with the hose. Water would flown through the current meter and then into the hose.

Okay, now on to the problem you have with current draining the battery down. You need to measure current flow. Disconnect the minus terminal of the battery. Set your meter to read current (amps). This may entail moving the leads to connections on the meter just for testing current. Set your meter to read the highest current setting on your meter. This may be 10 amps. This is much more electrical current than I would expect to be flowing when the jeep is off. The reason for the high setting is because you very well may blow the fuse in the meter if you are drawing more current than you expect. Now with the jeep off put the black lead on the minus terminal on the battery. Put the red lead on the battery cable that is normally connected to the minus end of the battery. Now if there is any current flow it must flow through the meter. If the ignition and everything else is off you should get less than one amp flowing.

You said you replaced the battery. That may have been the problem all along. You might want to just wait to make sure it isn't already fixed.

 

[JR74CJ5]

Thank You Dave...

New stuff:

When i got home, the Jeep voltage test i did did show a drop in available battery voltage, although i understand this is not the correct way to test it, It does show the V have dropped. Minimal though. 12.41 the day before 12.39 next day. The jeep is starting fine. Last night though, i went for a spin, had the lights and the radio on. Lights were dim, and radio was cutting in and out every once in a while... Suspect charging system problem.

I turned on the heater motor, it immediately flashed the radio (sound cut out) and dimmed the lights. This is while driving it at approx 12-1600 RPM.

I assume, I either have:
A short.
Bad ground
or new alternator is not charging / providing necessary current / voltage.

Got to destination... With jeep running, checked the voltage (yes voltage) at the battery. 11.12 V... Should be 14 ish right? Rev-ed up engine, no change.

One extra note on alt: The new alt and old alt were exactly similar except:
Old = 37 amp output / New 55 Amp
Old = two prong connection to the (sorry for ignorance) rectangular plate that holds the "brushes?" against the round spinning 2 "rings" / New had only 1 - Found that the two small screws holding the rectangle plate into the back of the alt could be removed from the old and the missing connection was actually an extra metal plate with prong off it, installed onto the new alt too, and rehooked up the ground to it. (so it is basically the same now as the old one.) Anything wrong with this?

(EDIT: The alt has other connections too, just mentioned the difference between connections above)

I assume Voltage regulator is bad... Have not yet disconnected bat terminal to see if will stay running. If the jeep stays running, then alt good if not its bad is the only thing ive ever known about that particular poor-mans test... Can the voltage regulator being bad also make the jeep die?

My Plan: (please recommend different if necessary)

1. Disconnect bat cable while jeep running. If dies, charging system faulty, continue to check grounds, get a new external regulator (voltage).
2. Test as BusaDave has suggested, though I believe my voltmeter only tests amperage up to 200ma... Was afraid I'd blow the fuse... How many ma in 1 A may have to borrow a better one...
3. Have the brand new alt checked for factory fault.
4. begin the mouse hunt for a short, bad grounds, etc.

I am also going to check the wiring I have done for all the recent mods I've completed.



Very bummed... I am leaning towards the voltage regulator being bad, perhaps the alt was never bad... I assumed bad, since vehicle would not continue to run with bat disconnected. Possible the voltage regulator was the cause instead? if bad would it have acted like alt bad in that particular test?


Sorry so long guys. Greatly appreciate the assistance...


Definitely need to rename my build thread as I believe old dog suggested... Currently "Jr's build as I go" need named " Jr's FIX as I go..." And making me starve by robbing me blind would also work...

 

[JR74CJ5]

Well... Short story. Found loose connections and replaced them. No change. Bought new voltage reg. No change...

Disconnect neg terminal from bat jeep dies. Assume alt not working properly. Going to have it tested. Remans are sold bad occationally...

Only other thing i can think if, little light reads amp on gauge cluster not coming on. Read in fsm that its inline with charging system. Amything to do with problem?

Should probably start new thread, but all info here so will try leaving it for now...

Frustrated... time...

 

[BusaDave9]

Yes, Jeeps can be frustrating. Don't give up JR. It sounds like you may have 2 problems here. You may have some current drain. But more importantly your alternator isn't doing it's job. With a new regulator I think you are on the right track double-checking the alternator.

Assume alt not working properly. Going to have it tested.

Don't worry about the current drain until you can get 14 volts out of your alternator when the engine is running. A short can cause low voltage but it sounds like your alternator just isn't putting out the voltage. You may want to disconnect your winch just to eliminate that possibility. That's one thing that was added at the beginning of your problems. Just disconnect the big cables to the winch.
Your belt is tight, isn't it?

BTW there is 1000 miliamps in 1 amp

 

[JR74CJ5]

Belt is pretty tight, may need to re adjust though, just to be sure

I will disconnect winch, and see if it makes a difference.

I just thought right now, maybe the change I mentioned before that i did to the new alternator affected it adversely...

Old = two prong connection to the (sorry for ignorance) rectangular plate that holds the "brushes?" against the round spinning 2 "rings" / New had only 1 - Found that the two small screws holding the rectangle plate into the back of the alt could be removed from the old and the missing connection was actually an extra metal plate with prong off it, installed onto the new alt too, and rehooked up the ground to it. (so it is basically the same now as the old one.) Anything wrong with this?

(EDIT: The alt has other connections too, just mentioned the difference between connections above)

Basically,

Where the red line points to on the picture (not my actual alt, just showing for reff) that rectangle part is what I am talking about above.

The new one did not have a metal plate over the plastic plate like old one did. Old ones ground plug was a 2 wire plug with ground and field wire connecting as one plug (two separate wire connections still obviously) So I found that the metal "ground plate" could be removed from the old one, and installed where the new one was not "included"

Perhaps this alt is set up to work from another ground connection instead, as the original location of the ground was not included with this alt.


I may try to remove this plate, and reinstall as it came, with the ground connection on the other ground position (if is one... assuming there is...)

What do you all think about that maybe my problem?

And yes Dave I do get frustrated, but not to the point of giving up. Just take a break for the night once and a while or stuff mysteriously starts breaking as i touch it... Once broke a power steering pump trying to get the return hose off the tank, got irratated and yanked, figured out the "nipple" was plastic...