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Pa - Sorry to disagree with you on one small thing. Just because several battery's are manufactured at the same plant doesn't mean that they are all the same. Battery's are built to the specifications laid down by the distributor. Sure many battery's from that manufacturer might be exactly the same with different a label, not necessarily all of them though.
'85 CJ-7, 258/4.2L 6cyl. Bought new in 1985. Full cage, Warn 8274 winch, Ford 9" rear, front/rear Detroit Lockers w/4:88 R&P. T-5 tranny and 4:1 t'case. 33X12.50-15 BFG/AT, MSD ign, on board air---
Batteries are like shocks (and frankly a lot of products nowadays), a few places make them and sell to all the others who then re-brand them as their own. I did a little research on this last summer while looking for a battery and it seem most of the common brands (which varies per your area) are made by the same manf. and re-branded for others. If I recall correctly, for example, AutoCraft, Durolast, Delco, Everstart, and DieHard, among others are all made by the same manf. And I know that a NAPA battery is a Deka cause that's what I went with.
So it comes down to a marketing thing. I had found a recent list online but I don't have time right now to look again for it. It's out there though.
Hedge X2!
Batteries and shocks etc. are made to the sellers specs.
Plus-suppliers change as the contracts end.
Deka is owned by East Penn Mfg. The largest family owned battery maker in the country and makes batteries for the likes of Wal-Mart and many more.
LG
Heat kills batteries, the cold makes it noticeable. I've sat through more than a few battery mfg seminars. I have some white papers somewhere on batteries. I'll see if I can find them as they did add some clarity.
I believe the battery an heat connection, what I don't exactly understand are the batteries that go bad in the spring, you'd think warmer weather would make the batteries life easier with lower starting demands.
The primary reason I louvered my CJ's hood was to reduce at least some of the heat load on the battery.
One reason I think they are popular on Jeeps (or offroading in general) is that they're sealed, deep cycle, spillproof, and more resistant to vibration. Things that typically get tested in real off road conditions (underwater, in the mud, roll overs, etc).
Pa - Sorry to disagree with you on one small thing. Just because several battery's are manufactured at the same plant doesn't mean that they are all the same. Battery's are built to the specifications laid down by the distributor. Sure many battery's from that manufacturer might be exactly the same with different a label, not necessarily all of them though.
Yes, I agree that specs can be different. But I wouldn't think there would be too big of a list of specs. I was thinking the reason why some brands use different manufacturers was for their different lines of batteries, within the same brand, to get their different specs. Maybe not. I guess we have to be "in the industry" to really know what goes into the details of making a battery.
Most everyday 12-volt car Batteries still use lead, plates, acid, etc. So basically, they are almost all the same in that respect. Regardless of brand.
The differences are things like Cold Cranking Amps CCA, or the size (24F, 65, etc), some are vented in certain ways (for interiors, like, some Buicks put the battery under the rear seat), Deep Cycle, Marine Batteries, sealed batteris, and some unusual batteries for some foreign vehicles. Performance batteries have some differences in the way they are made, physically and internally.
In this case, you are using the battery for a specific type driving (offroading), so your battery choice would be different than a stock battery.
If you have mods (more lighting for instance) you may want a battery that is better (stronger) than stock.
Others post some very good info here as well. There are a lot of good scenarios.
Personally? I use a good brand battery that is basically stock, but has a little bit more cold cranking amps (just my preference). Here in Florida, with a lot of heat under the hood, you might get maybe 3 to 5 years out of a battery (mine is a daily driver).
That doesn't make it right or wrong, just my choice. I don't do any offroading, nor do I have any added lighting at this time.
1968 CJ5: all stock (V6/T86/D18/D27/D44) except 4bbl & headers and rear aux tank, HD rear 44 housing, Warn OD, Belleview winch, Whitco top (New Blue)
1968 CJ5: mostly stock (V6/T90/D18/D27/D44), unknown make 3" lift springs, 11" Bendix brakes, Warn OD, unknown electric winch, Kayline tire/jerry can carrier, Bestop Super Top (Old Blue)
1947 2A and 49 3A that may or may not get built, and several FC/wagon derelicts
IMO Batteries are not what they used to be. My first red-top lasted 7 years with lots of abuse. The second one only lasted three years almost to the day. I am on four years with the one in my truck and it needs to be on a tender unless I drive it once per week. The last one I bought was an Interstate because I could get it for $99. We'll see how long that lasts.
The longest warranty I could find was 3 years. I remember when Sears Diehards were lifetime...
You would think with all the money we are throwing at green energy development they would be getting better (and cheaper). HA!
My experience with Red Tops is similar. The first one I bought you couldn't kill and I use my winch virtually every time I'm out. It lasted 8 years and probably could have gone longer. It's replacement, now made by Johnson Controls, became unreliable at 3 years. It was replaced by an Odyssey and I have never looked back. Pricey but worth every cent if you want total reliability.
I've never been inclined to pack the weight of a dual battery system around, not to mention trying to fit that in a flatty with a lot of other stuff under the hood is more than a bit of an engineering challenge. If one is going to be doing a lot of winching, the alternator is most definitely part of the equation and can't be ignored. You can get by with a smaller version, but your duty cycle is going to be similarly sized. IMO, you need at least a 100 amp version and bigger is better. Again, IMO, a high amp alternator adds virtually no more weight and takes no more space than a small amp version and is the best option to use with a winch. All that said, there isn't going to be any alternator that will keep up with continual winching and for that matter, there aren't going to be too many winches that will take that either, especially most of the chinese ones.
1979 Jeep CJ7 TH400 Automatic 258 I6 Quadratrac Amc 20 rear & Dana 30 front, 32 x 11.5 x 15 tires. Currently a Complete Custom Rebuild in progress.
Also I own a 2001 Jeep Cherokee, White, all stock with 4.0L. automatic, and police package. Best part of that is it came with leather seats! This package also has the NP242 Transfer Case, 8.25 rear end, and trailer towing package.
'85 CJ-7, 258/4.2L 6cyl. Bought new in 1985. Full cage, Warn 8274 winch, Ford 9" rear, front/rear Detroit Lockers w/4:88 R&P. T-5 tranny and 4:1 t'case. 33X12.50-15 BFG/AT, MSD ign, on board air---
Stick with a common, popular size.
BCI (Battery Council International) Group Sizes 24/24F, 27/27F are the most common 'Small' and 'Large' batteries.
Slightly larger than the Group 27 is the Industral Group 31,
And it's MUCH more powerful.
The 'Easiest' way to tell which is the 'Better' battery in a given group size is to weigh the battery.
With very few exceptions, the heavier offering will be the more powerful,
Simply because lead plates make the power, and lead is heavy.
The more plates, the stronger it will be,
The heavier the plates, the harder it will be to kill.
CONSUMER batteries are what you see at the parts stores, Wally-world, ect.
These are built for eye appeal and to do a reasonable job under LIGHT work conditions.
These batteries are light built, have HUGE claims of CA or CCA and Amp Hour ratings, which they rarely live up to in controlled testing.
INDUSTRAL or 'ROUGH SERVICE',
These are black cases, heavier built for big trucks, farm tractors, construction equipment, ect.
These usually live up to specifications since they will be handled by mechanics that know how to test for the advertised.
'Rough Service' will have the plates 'Caged' or 'Captured' top and bottom to keep plates from getting knocked loose,
And they usually have a 'Mud Tray' at the bottom,
A gap between bottom of case and bottom of plates to keep scale off the plates from shorting out the cells.
These batteries usually have a fiber weave between plates,
So if a plate warps or gets broken it doesn't short the cell out.
SPECALITY BATTERIES,
DEEP CYCLE MARINE, discharges over time DEEPLY, but will recover with a 'Trickle' charger.
The batteries will be damaged easy by RAPID CHARGE OR DISCHARGE.
MARINE STARTING,
Able to discharge much faster without damage,
Charge faster without damage,
And will discharge deeper than a common battery without damage.
The Marine batteries are usually pretty ruggedly built, with some features of Rough Service batteries since boats can really beat the out of batteries.
(This is what I use in my farm equipment & Jeeps)
GEL CELLS,
Fully gelled electrolyte between plates.
No spill, no off gas issues, the gel makes them durable.
Rapid charging or discharging can create gas bubbles that get trapped against the plates, so consider the use of a full on Gel Cell closely for a vehicle application.
AGM (Activated Glass Matt),
'Six Pack' or 'Jelly Roll' batteries, 'Optima' and the like.
Gel electrolyte traps gas bubbles against the plates creating dead spots on the plates,
VERY THIN plate material tha cracks easily,
Soldered connections between plates and bridges,
Solder joints crack when handled roughly or get overheated from hard use.
----
Very few people will argue this fact,
The best thing you can do for a winch is a second battery.
There simply isn't anything invented yet that substitutes for the reserve amperage of a second battery...
Yep :-) Thanks guys. There are certain reasons I don't get out much, but....
our sales guys are die hard off road guys. I need to take some pictures of their rides.
If you ever talked to any of them on the phone before, you know they can talk Jeeps all day long till the sun goes down LOL
Just as a shout out, you have a great board here. It's good to see so many people offer to help others. :-)
Yep :-) Thanks guys. There are certain reasons I don't get out much, but....
our sales guys are die hard off road guys. I need to take some pictures of their rides.
If you ever talked to any of them on the phone before, you know they can talk Jeeps all day long till the sun goes down LOL
Just as a shout out, you have a great board here. It's good to see so many people offer to help others. :-)
Here is some AGM Battery information I had in my files.
INFORMATION BULLETIN
Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Batteries
What are AGM batteries?
Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Batteries are being used in the automotive industry as a replacement for typical Flooded Lead
Acid (FLA) wet‐cell batteries. AGM batteries are sometimes referred to as Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) or Sealed Lead
Acid (SLA).
AGM batteries come in both a spiral and flat‐plate designs, and both AGMs have the same chemical composition. These
batteries may be constructed with pure/virgin lead or recycled/alloyed lead.
Though AGM batteries use similar components and chemicals as Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries – lead plates with
electrolyte and separators, AGM batteries provide several benefits over FLA batteries. In an AGM battery, the electrolyte is
absorbed into sponge‐like glass mat separators, meaning there is no free electrolyte liquid like in a FLA battery. AGM
batteries have a highly compressed overall design and use higher density materials to provide better vibration tolerance and
offer substantially longer life than FLA batteries. AGM batteries typically provide higher cranking power and reserve capacity
than an FLA of the same group size (due to thicker plates). The plates can be made larger because there is no need to provide
space for free flowing electrolyte or a sediment chamber as in an FLA.
Helpful hints to identify an AGM battery:
Battery label may indicate AGM or “Non‐Spillable”
Side of the battery may have a cylindrical appearance (AGM spiral)
May have an external grid to reinforce the battery case
AGM batteries have been installed in cars since the late
1990s; and by the end of 2012, AGM batteries were original
equipment in approximately 30 million cars in North America
‐ growing at a rate of 8 million batteries per year. AGM
batteries can be found in some application of virtually all
foreign and domestic car manufacturers.
The increased power demand of today’s cars and trucks,
along with the introduction of start‐stop technology has
fueled the growth of AGM battery use. Most high‐voltage (HV) hybrid electric vehicles use a 12v AGM battery in addition to
their HV battery.
It’s critically important for shops to help motorists understand why their car requires an AGM battery with these robust
technologies and features for proper vehicle systems’ operation and for optimal battery life.
Warning: Typical Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries should never be installed in applications designed for an AGM battery.
AGM Testing, Charging and Installation
AGM batteries require special consideration during testing, charging and installation.
INFORMATION BULLETIN
AGM Battery Testing, Charging and Installation Tips
How do I properly test an AGM Battery?
A modern, electronic tester will prompt the user to identify the battery as either Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) or Flooded Lead
Acid (FLA). Identification of the battery type may be difficult, but is critical for accurate results. Look on the top of the
battery for a label that indicates AGM or “Non‐Spillable”; the side of the battery may have a cylindrical appearance (AGM
spiral); or some AGMs have an external grid used to reinforce the battery case.
Proper setup of the test equipment is critical for proper diagnostics of AGM batteries. Modern, electronic battery testers may
be used to test an AGM battery; however, the tester must have specific AGM Spiral or AGM Flat‐Plate testing inputs to
achieve accurate test results. Technicians must input accurate and proper battery APPLICATION, TYPE, RATING and VALUES into
the battery tester.
A carbon‐pile load tester may also be used to test an AGM battery, but accurate results require that the battery is adequately
charged and has stabilized prior to performing any load test.
Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) is an indicator of State‐of‐Charge (SOC). Modern battery testers use this information to determine
a good battery, recommend a charge‐and‐retest or recommend replacement of a failed battery.
How to Properly Charge an AGM Battery
AGM batteries require a battery charger specifically designed
for use with AGM batteries. This is because conventional FLA
12v battery chargers can generate voltages (and voltage
spikes) that are too high for safe AGM battery charging.
Warning: Improperly charging an AGM battery will damage
the battery within minutes, greatly increasing your risk of
exploding the battery. This is an extreme safety hazard that
can cause serious personal injuries and damage the vehicle.
AGM batteries must be charged with highly‐ specific AGM charging algorithms, typically found in diagnostic or “smart”
chargers. Identification of the battery type may be difficult, but is critical for safe and accurate charging. If you cannot
identify the battery type, always use the AGM charge settings as a safety precaution.
Diagnostic chargers are designed to constantly monitor the battery's charge acceptance and temperature, and then vary the
voltage and current delivered to the battery. Monitoring the battery and customizing the charger's response allows safe and
quick charging without the risk of overcharging or venting the battery. When the charge rate is too high (as with any battery)
excess hydrogen gas can build up in the battery. Under normal conditions, the build of pressurized gas is minimal and proper
recombination of hydrogen and oxygen occurs, producing water to keep the mats moist. If the pressure increases above
approximately 1.5psi, the gases are vented to atmosphere and will not be available for recombination, causing the glass mats
to dry out ‐ shortening the operational life of the battery.
REMINDER: Most currently‐available wheeled battery chargers are not rated for AGM batteries. It is important to recognize
that using a charger not rated for AGMs will not only severely damage the battery, but also poses an explosion hazard,
potentially damaging the vehicle and causing personal injury.
How do I properly install an AGM Battery?
The procedural steps to install an AGM battery are similar to FLA battery installation. Always utilize a battery replacement
guide or data book to determine the manufacturer’s battery requirements for the vehicle. The Battery Council International’s
(BCI) Battery Replacement Data Book is a good example. Install a battery that meets the manufacturer specifications,
including battery type (FLA or AGM). Note: Most guides or data books identify battery type utilizing a footnote reference. An
AGM battery requirement may be referenced as either a VRLA or SLA battery
Warning: Typical Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries should never be installed in applications designed for an AGM battery.
Many AGM applications will have the battery mounted inside the passenger compartment. In these instances you may find a
vent tube attached to the battery and routed to the outside of the vehicle through an opening in the body. It is extremely
important to ensure the vent is routed properly. A buildup of explosive hydrogen gas can occur in the passenger
compartment if the battery is improperly charged either by the onboard charging system or use of an incorrect charger
connected to the remote‐mounted battery lugs.
Always use a proper memory saver device to protect the on‐board computer’s memory (to maintain vehicle settings* and
stored information*) before disconnecting the battery. *For example, engine/Transmission performance re‐learn; security
system lock‐out; steering‐angle sensor; driver seat and mirrors settings loss.
Ensure the ignition is off, interior lights are off, radio is off, and all doors are closed, as these electrical systems can rapidly
drain a conventional 12v memory saver, resulting in the loss of vital settings or programming. Do not use a 9v battery or scan
tool as a memory saver, and never disconnect the negative terminal with the engine running. Additionally, certain cars
require battery “registration” through the OBD data link connector to complete the installation process.
Consider test‐driving the vehicle to verify that all module programming, radio memory and driver’s convenience settings
were retained.
'85 CJ-7, 258/4.2L 6cyl. Bought new in 1985. Full cage, Warn 8274 winch, Ford 9" rear, front/rear Detroit Lockers w/4:88 R&P. T-5 tranny and 4:1 t'case. 33X12.50-15 BFG/AT, MSD ign, on board air---
Know'n a good bit about TR's background. Folks will make a huge mistake in not listening to what he has to say.
I have learn'd much from him, and I thank him for that and the time he has given me over the years.
My best to you Aaron.
LG
Batteries produce electrical current by storing CHEMICAL ENERGY.
The electrical current CONVERTS electrical energy to chemical energy,
Then when there is a demand, the battery converts CHEMICAL ENERGY into electrical energy.
The conversion process produces heat and gas.
The amount and size of the plates determines how FAST your battery can do either process.
The larger the battery, the more heat produced, but also the more electrical energy can be absorbed by the chemical process, or released by the chemical process.
This is true of all common batteries.
Batteries can be built for a slow charge, but a LONG & SLOW discharge, like DCM,
Or they can be built to very quickly charge/discharge, like high amperage STARTING batteries.
And there are degrees in between that will give you solid performance for both functions. It just depends on how the battery is built...
----
THE ONE THING THAT NO WET CELL BATTERY WILL TOLERATE IS CONTAMINATION IN THE WATER YOU USE TO TOP IT OFF!
'Hard' water is dissolved solids in the water supply.
Anything in the water will condense on the plates, turn back into a solid, and block access of the electrolyte to the plates.
Some solids, like limestone, will NEUTRALIZE the acid based electrolyte and kill the battery in VERY short order.
Public water systems use a lot of Chlorine, and chlorine is death to the acid.
A gallon of DISTILLED, solids/chemicals free water is cheap, lives the life of the battery most times,
And will keep your battery alive MUCH LONGER than you would with 'Tap' or 'Purified' water.
----
Since I don't spend a lot of time on my sides or top,
I usually recommend a battery that can be refilled with 'Water' to bring the electrolyte level up.
Hard use, a hard starting vehicle, one that has a charging system playing games, winch operations, ect. all work the battery, which looses moisture in the process.
When you are able to top off that battery with DISTILLED water, you extend the life of that battery at pretty much full power.
'Sealed' batteries of any kind will use up the 'Extra' water installed at the factory, then uncover the plates and the battery will die.
----
AGM batteries have their faults,
VERY high price, short Warranty period,
Problems handling fast charge/discharge rates,
Fairly fragile construction are a few.
I hear people talk about having them work fine for years,
Maybe I'd too hard on them, I have yet to have one live through warranty period.
-----
I used to use a lot of 'Rough Service' batteries from the local farm & industrial store.
I usually don't need a battery that is built for some piece of heavy equipment with no suspension that gets the snot beat out of it all day long, every day.
I wasn't dragging it by the cables behind the Jeep...
As scale, corrosion from the plates being consumed as the battery works, or residue from solids in the water/electrolyte used,
Will fall into the 'Mud Tray' at the bottom of a 'Rough Service' battery and the battery will continue to work until the plates are eaten away.
With the extra room at the top of the case for the plate capture to keep them in place,
And the 'Mud Tray' at the bottom of the case taking up room,
Don't expect the 'Rough Service' batteries to be quite as heavy as you might think...
You trade lead plates size for the 'Rough Service' part,
And they do their jobs VERY WELL in regards to getting the kicked out of them and still working!
----
I went through several DCM (Deep Cycle Marine) batteries before I figured out I was cooking them to death with a 78 Amp alternator, through the factory Fusible Link,
Which meant they were receiving less than 40 Amps.
Bloated cases, warped plates, constantly needing water are the signs you are cooking one to death.
A battery should NEVER be hot, or even good and warm to the touch...
Considering most outboard boats use DCM,
And they use DCM's in pairs most times,
The outboard will produce between 2 Amps and 20 Amps total to charge the batteries,
This explains why 30 or 40 amps cooked my SINGLE DCM in the Jeep.
Boats also don't have a winch that will draw 300 all the way up to 700 Amps at a stalled pull,
While outboard starters rarely draw more than 5 to 10 Amps, Trolling motors usually draw less than 30 Amps.
And my Jeep starter only draws 170 amps in the summer months,
Again, explains why my full on DCM batteries didn't last long with the winch...
----
By far, the largest class of AUTOMOTIVE batteries is STARTING BATTERIES.
A starting battery is what most of us have, made to start a CONSUMER VEHICLE.
Now, remember, the 'Consumer' batteries have been getting refined to start up these fuel injected engines we have now,
Not the old 'Farm Tractor' and 1960s engines we run in our '70s & '80s Jeeps...
Batteries ARE NOT relied on for 'Power Everything' in modern vehicles,
They have FAST RESPONDING HIGH AMPERAGE ALTERNATORS,
As a rule, most of us are still using Delco Remy SI alternators, which are NOT fast responding, or highly regulated.
And to be completely honest, our Jeep wiring isn't set up properly to even use a high amperage, quick response alternator...
So, to sum it all up,
I'm using a MARINE STARTING BATTERY.
Some 'Deep Cycle' capacity, although it's not a true Deep Cycle battery,
And it's a STARTING battery, which I need to get the little rust bucket started on cold days, and when I run the winch.
Since it's built for MARINE use, it's built TOUGHER than the average soft riding passenger car battery.
Boats can take a pretty good beating, and the battery has to be built for that punishment and live.
Like I said before, and most will agree,
The BEST THING you can do for a which equipped vehicle is a second battery.
Haven't looked yet so I have a simple question. Does a marine starting battery come in CJ battery tray sizes or does the stock tray need to be altered to accept one of these batteries?
out of batteries.
