78 CJ5 loose steering on deceleration

[tbrya]

I recently bought a 78 CJ5 with a 4" suspension lift and a 2" body lift. THe motor is a 327 chevy and is quite strong. When I accelerate the jeep goes straight down the road. As soon as I let up on the gas the jeep begins to drift and it takes 2 hands to a delicate touch to keep it from going off the road or in the on coming lane. The speedometer doesn't work yet but I am guessing I am going from 35 to 45 mph and don't dare go any faster.

My questions are;

Is this common in with a CJ5 ?
Will a sway bar help steady the front end movement?
Do I need to stiffen up the frame in front of the oil pan to tighten up the front end?
Do I need another steering box?
Will Power steering help?
Is it an alignment problem?
What is the max speed I can expect out of a CJ5 ?
Is this a narrow wheel base problem that can't be fixed?

Ball joints are good. There is some play in the steering when sitting still. So when I bounce the steering wheel back and forth the shaft turns but there doesn't seem to be any movement from the pitman arm on. So it seems that the steering box is not transferring the movement.

Is this something that can be fixed or is this the nature of the beast and I need to live with the low speed and wild handling.

I know I have a lot of questions but I am really hoping this can be fixed so that I can really enjoy this.

I've attached a few pictures.

Thanks

Tbrya

 

[CJ]

Hello tbrya and welcome to the site!

Is this common you ask? Yes.
Is this normal - No. I could drive at 70 mph all day long in my CJ5 with on hand on the wheel.

It really sounds like you have a caster problem. I see by your pics you do not have extended shackles but do have a lift kit. Do you have degree shims placed between the spring perch and the axle?

Also, how much play is there in the steering coupler?

 

[chris77cj]

Im new to the cj,s but did it not come with power steering?was it removed by po.just curious

 

[Old Dog]

A couple things seem a little off here. You say you have a 4" sup. lift,
but it looks like you don't have a drop pitman arm, yet your draglink and tierod seem to be pretty paralel.

In the pic's it looks like there are shiny spots on the tierod where the draglink and pitman arm is rubbing. It also looks like your steering shaft is rubbing your headers.
While I don't THINK this is your problem it should be fixed.

 

[tbrya]

It really sounds like you have a caster problem. I see by your pics you do not have extended shackles but do have a lift kit. Do you have degree shims placed between the spring perch and the axle?

Also, how much play is there in the steering coupler?

_______________________________________________________________


I wonder about the caster problem as well. I only know what I have read on the internet and have not really figured out how to fix that. I understand there is suppose to be a 2-6 degree positive (to the front) castor and it appears that there is about 3 degrees.

As far as the extended shackles, I'm not sure if they are or not. Those are the attachments to the frame at the end of the leaf springs? right? I will attach a few more pics to give you a better view.

The steering seems to have a lot of play before it moves anything past the Pitman arm.

Also when I turn the steering wheel the front of the frame twists slightly. Not sure if that is normal with the 33's I have on there. I bought this jeep with 35's and bought some 33's to see if it made a difference and it acted the same.

So I was thinking of having a frame stiffner fabricated for the front of the frame to control what would seem should not twist.

What do you think?

Hope the pictures help, I may need to take some more.


​

 

[tbrya]

Im new to the cj,s but did it not come with power steering?was it removed by po.just curious

I am not sure but I was wondering if adding it would help?

 

[tbrya]

A couple things seem a little off here. You say you have a 4" sup. lift,
but it looks like you don't have a drop pitman arm, yet your draglink and tierod seem to be pretty paralel.

In the pic's it looks like there are shiny spots on the tierod where the draglink and pitman arm is rubbing. It also looks like your steering shaft is rubbing your headers.
While I don't THINK this is your problem it should be fixed.

There is a drop pitman arm there. ( i will include pics).

Yes those links are pretty parallel the shinny spots are from the 2 bolts being turned down. I turned them up so they don't rub any more.

As far as the steering shaft. It didn't seem like it would make a difference but if you guys think it does than I will fix it. As you probably guessed I am new to this type of work but am very capable and willing to learn about this.

The picture shows the pitman. The steering box is mounted on a drop down bracket. I think that is why the linkage is parallel.

 

[TDHofstetter]

I've got a question for you... it's not related to the steering issue (which is probably caster or loose joints). That's a 327? Transmission 's a Turbo 350? Where in heck is the Transfer Case ?

 

[tbrya]

I've got a question for you... it's not related to the steering issue (which is probably caster or loose joints). That's a 327? Transmission 's a Turbo 350? Where in heck is the Transfer Case ?

Isn't it above the Transmission on the passenger side of the vehicle? Your talking to an amateur here? I will check and see and post a picture.

By the way your post about how to check the steering was awesome and when I get back home I am going to check all the things you wrote about. Nice Job!!

Does having 33's or 35's effect the drift while driving or is that fixable so that my wife is not terrified to drive it?

 

[Old Dog]

Does having 33's or 35's effect the drift while driving or is that fixable so that my wife is not terrified to drive it?

35's will have more flex in their widewall's since they are taller.
so yea it will drive a LITTLE better with the 33's, depends a lot on how stiff the sidewall on the tire is
and how much air you have.

 

[TDHofstetter]

It's normally BEHIND the Transmission , straight back... but a Turbo 350 leaves precious little room behind it - that's why AMC/Jeep built the CJ7 , so there was enough room to install an automatic Transmission ; a CJ5 just doesn't have enough length for one to work right. Your rear driveshaft has got to be PITIFUL short with an automatic in there, and the Transfer Case shifter has gotta' be a long way behind where it was supposed to be.

You're sure we're not looking at a CJ7 instead of a CJ5 ??

Thanks for the vote of confidence about that article - I've got a few more of those in me.

I don't believe CJ5s ever shipped with power steering, by the way - only that slow-ratio manual steering you've got.

With the symptoms you've described, I'd start by checking the drag link first, where it connects to the pitman arm and then where it connects to the right steering knuckle. After that, check the tie rod ends. If it drives in a straight line under load, it should stay in a straight line while you're decelerating, too... the difference there being that when you're decelerating a lot more load (think traction & drag) is placed on the front axle, so the front tires get a LOT more control over where you're going... so they can lead you where they want to go. If the steering linkage isn't good & snug, they might pick a direction that's not in very good agreement with either the painted lines or your preference...

 

[tbrya]

35's will have more flex in their widewall's since they are taller.
so yea it will drive a LITTLE better with the 33's, depends a lot on how stiff the sidewall on the tire is
and how much air you have.

I bought the 33's just for around town and will use the 35's when I go off road. I plan to have them rebalanced as well.

Thanks
Troy

 

[tbrya]

You're sure we're not looking at a CJ7 instead of a CJ5 ??



I am including a picture of the jeep. I will take some pictures from behind the Transmission and the shifter between the seats so you can see what I'm talking about.

Also, here is the full write up on this thing which may give you a better idea as well.


[FONT=&quot]This jeep is in great condition with an all original metal body which is absolutely rust free...yes, original! Paint is in great condition minus a few very minor chips as normal wear would suggest, but overall looks awsome! It has a full cage and the interior is very clean, rhino lined with new replacement floors and eqquipped with all rci racing harnests, bucket seats and autometer gauges. This jeep runs and drives great, cool and is very dependable. It is clean, proffesionally built and has been very well maintained. Major components such as the Transmission and four wheel drive shift in and work great. This jeep is completely ready for summer and minus the speedometer, fuel gauge and functioning heater can be considered one hundred percent streetable. That should disclose the general condition and functionality of the jeep. As for the powerplant, suspension and drivetrain, i will comprise a list of categorized details below.(Marker flag is currently off the vehicle) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENGINE-327 CID small block chevy which has been professionally machined and build with all forged Eagle rotating assembly, 12.5 to 1 compression kieth black dome pistons, 630 lift solid camshaft, cast iron 202 camel back cylinder heads with complete 3 angle valve job, porting and polishing, 3/8 pushrods, 1.6 harland sharp roller rocker arms with 7/16 studs, victor jr. intake manifold, new HEI distributer, holley 750 dual feed carburator and jet coated hedman headers dumping off to 2 chamber flowmasters which sounds unbelievable.(the video does not do it justice) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DRIVELINE-350 turbo automatic Transmission with 3000 stahl converter and shift kit built by Al's Transmission & gear and T 18 trasfer case. Rear end is eqquiped with detroit locker, 456 ring & pinion gear and one piece moser exles and front end as well with lockers. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SUSPENSION-Complete Skyjacker lift with 4 inch suspension and 2 inch body sitting on fresh 35X14.50 super swampper tires. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ADITTIONAL BRAND NEW PARTS-All universal joints, skyjacker shocks, stabilizer shock, steering box brace and bracket, aluminum radiator, HEI distributer and gas tank [/FONT]

 

[TDHofstetter]

Sure sounds like a rig that'd move right down the road, I'll give it that.

I'm lookin' at the side view there, though... and visualizing what a 327 mated to a THM350 looks like on the floor, and given where the headers exit I can see pretty much where the front of the motor is in the engine compartment... and when I visualize where that T-18 is hanging... it'll be dang near on top of the rear axle. That rear driveshaft can't be very long - I sure hope the suspension's stiff! Any way we could get a photo underneath the rear end, from one side? If nothing else, it'd satisfy my curiosity about how in heck they got that thing in there.

12.5:1??? Tight, tight motor. Betcha' it's fun to stick your foot in it...

Hey, here's an idea - you can do this, since you've got an automatic in that thing.

Let it sit, idling, foot off the brake, in Park. Turn the steering wheel gently left & right - you'll feel a little dead spot where it doesn't do anything, right? Now put your left foot on the brake, Transmission in Drive, Transfer Case shifted to 2H, and give it a little gas with your right foot. Ease up on the brake until it barely starts to go a little - kinda' like you're getting ready to do a burnout. Now while the rears are pushing but the front brakes won't let it go anyplace, you're simulating deceleration in the front end... kinda'. Nosedive, ya know. While it's standing that way, still under gas/brake pressure, turn the wheel gently again. Does it feel like there's more play?

 

[tbrya]

i'll check that today and get you some pictures

 

[Old Dog]

1 When I accelerate the jeep goes straight down the road. As soon as I let up on the gas the jeep begins to drift and it takes 2 hands to a delicate touch to keep it from going off the road or in the on coming lane.
2 Will a sway bar help steady the front end movement?
3 Do I need to stiffen up the frame in front of the oil pan to tighten up the front end?
4 Is it an alignment problem?
5 Ball joints are good. There is some play in the steering when sitting still. So when I bounce the steering wheel back and forth the shaft turns but there doesn't seem to be any movement from the pitman arm on. So it seems that the steering box is not transferring the movement.

1 Does the jeep always drift the same direction
2 Maybe it couldn't hurt, you really should have one for safety sake.
3 I have a small block in my 83 with no extra bracing and it drives fine
4 Take it in and have it done, maybe no one has since the lift. It will tell you if you have any problems or not.
5 How much play we talking about

 

[tbrya]

Sure sounds like a rig that'd move right down the road, I'll give it that.

I'm lookin' at the side view there, though... and visualizing what a 327 mated to a THM350 looks like on the floor, and given where the headers exit I can see pretty much where the front of the motor is in the engine compartment... and when I visualize where that T-18 is hanging... it'll be dang near on top of the rear axle. That rear driveshaft can't be very long - I sure hope the suspension's stiff! Any way we could get a photo underneath the rear end, from one side? If nothing else, it'd satisfy my curiosity about how in heck they got that thing in there.



Ok, I took it to a mechanic this morning and he noticed that when I move the steering wheel from side to side the frame also moves. This seems significant. Should I start to think about stiffening that frame up in front of the motor for stability? My uncle, has done several frame off restorations, told me I need to hook up that sway bar so that it keeps that frame from shifting when I steer. I thought that sway bar was just for the tipping motion side to side?

I copied off all the suggestions and took them to the mechanic to review.

Below are some pictures of the underside. If there not what you want to see let me know and I will post more.

Thanks again

 

[tbrya]

1 Does the jeep always drift the same direction
2 Maybe it couldn't hurt, you really should have one for safety sake.
3 I have a small block in my 83 with no extra bracing and it drives fine
4 Take it in and have it done, maybe no one has since the lift. It will tell you if you have any problems or not.
5 How much play we talking about

1. It seems to be loose and want to steer in both directions but my wife seems to think that it pulls more to the left.
2. I think I will just install one. It looks like I may have to do some fabricating off the bottom of the thing that attaches the leaf spring to the axel.
3. hmm
4. I took in this morning and after I make sure the suspension is tight i will get an alignment, then I don't know what next. I clocked it with my GPS and it showed max speed 40 mph. This is as fast as I dare go.
5. When I move the steering wheel back and forth just to bump the sides with out moving the tires. I get know movement past the steering box. When i move the steering back and forth to just barley move the tires the frame shifts from side to side as well.

 

[Old Dog]

When i move the steering back and forth to just barley move the tires the frame shifts from side to side as well.

This is common with big tires, and the jeep sitting still.

 

[tbrya]

This is common with big tires, and the jeep sitting still.

Really, seems like it should be more stiff. So where does that leave me? An alignment? add sway bars. Tighten everything attached to the axels. New steering box?

I'll keep you all posted.