78 CJ5 loose steering on deceleration

[Old Dog]

Well I hope we are talking about the same thing.
When you turn the steering wheel, the body (frame) will start to move before the tires. I'm only talking about a very small amount, enough you see it. I never tryed to measure but I would guess 1/4 inch.(I would guess this is in the supension)
The driving straight untill you hit the brakes and than wanting to wander around has me baffeled. I would start with an alinement and see what happens.
Tim or someone else might still have some ideas.

 

[Old Dog]

Not to change the subject but what is this jeep going to be used for.
With that engine and paint job I'm guessing sand drags.
or maybe cruse ins.

 

[TDHofstetter]

Right there - that last photograph. Bigger'n beans, that THM350's sure tucked in there with a teensy short li'l rear driveshaft...

But right there - that last photograph. I'm old, my eyes don't work so right any more (never were great)... somebody verify what I'm seein' there, willya? Looks to me like... that photo was taken looking exactly level, forward left. Right? Looking across the spring mounts? Now look at the differential nose. Is that, or is that not, rolled upwards so it looks at the Transfer Case ? Which would give the Jeep tons & tons of extra caster?

 

[rumblephish]

Right there - that last photograph. Bigger'n beans, that THM350's sure tucked in there with a teensy short li'l rear driveshaft...

But right there - that last photograph. I'm old, my eyes don't work so right any more (never were great)... somebody verify what I'm seein' there, willya? Looks to me like... that photo was taken looking exactly level, forward left. Right? Looking across the spring mounts? Now look at the differential nose. Is that, or is that not, rolled upwards so it looks at the Transfer Case ? Which would give the Jeep tons & tons of extra caster?

And I think, yes, yes... the judges are scoring it now..... YES! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!

Looks like he's sitting on WAY too much caster. Is that "negative" caster?

Couldn't he use some spacers to lower his Transfer Case ? I don't think they make shims big enough for him....

 

[Old Dog]

Tim, My old and half blind eyes can't really tell from that photo. But I don't see any deg. wedges,(maybe I just don't see them) do you think they rewelded the C's? There seems to be a few different looking things going on.
tbrya is there wedges between the springs and the axle?

 

[tbrya]

Ok, I took the jeep to the Mechanic that I normally go to and is very trustworthy. He said "sell it, its a death trap" He also stated that the motor is to big for this size vehicle. That bums me out because I really want to run this thing. He stated the motor is awesome and runs great but the suspension can't withstand the torque that the motor puts out. He stated that the problem is in the rear end and it is loose. He stated that he could tighten it up but it will just loosen again when I get on it.

Any ideas on what I can do to salvage this disaster?
I really was and am excited to have a muscle car like this but can't have something that is not safe.
What can I do to stiffen that up in the rear?
I have seen in race cars that they put some sort of truss like structure from the rear axle to the frame. How hard is that and can i do it and for what price?
Should I just abandon this dream or is it possible to have a "muscle Jeep"?

Please give it to me straight because if I have to sell I will and cut my losses. I just don't want to. I can sink some more money within reason but that is within reason and I don't know what that is?

What do you think? I can take it? Be truthful.

 

[Buuushman]

If it were me, since you are dealing with some fairly technical suspension geometry issues, I would take it to a shop that specializes in off-road and custom vehicles, not just your local mechanic. It looks like a lot of work has gone into that thing, and I would hate to write it off over something that someone with a trained eye and an up close look may be able to figure out.

Just my 2 cents.
Bushman

 

[TDHofstetter]

I was seriously wondering whether the problem was in the rear end instead of the front... but it's pretty hard to see exactly WHAT back there is LOOSE. Did the mechanic get specific about that? Loose U-bolts?

It's already got torque bars on both ends of the axle to combat spring windup. There's not a whole lot more you can do to stiffen the rear without going into some really pretty serious work.

I don't like to see Jeeps, especially LITTLE (CJ5 ) Jeeps, overpowered like that. They weren't built with anything like straight-line racing or roundy-round tracks in mind, they were built to be utility vehicles for carrying people & cargo places where the going's difficult - they're "get ya in, get ya out" vehicles.

It's possible to hotrod a CJ, certainly. I'd like to see a longer CJ as the beginning grounds, though - a CJ7 or a CJ8 . They give ya more stable steering. Later models tend to be more stable than earlier models, too, because of the wider suspension. THEY were built for even LOWER HORSEPOWER than the earlier models, though... so probably the best starting ground is a mix of early-AMC & late-AMC stuff (I don't like any variety of Wrangler). Oh, and I'd go 2WD, too... so it'd technically as much DJ as CJ. And... if it's to be a HOTROD Jeep, it really should lose the lift. If ya wanna' go fast, ya wanna' do it low.

No matter what else happens... both those axles (I looked harder at the pictures) MUST be rotated back to their correct orientation if that Jeep's to be a keeper. Running it with rotated axles WILL eat the U-joints and give ya all sorts of unusual wear on everything from the clutch to the tires.

But... yeah... if it's determined that the rear axle is walking on ya, you COULD have some special wishbone-type torque arms made up (AFTER THE AXLE IS ROTATED) to attach to the axle OUTBOARD of the frame, and reach forward to pivot points exactly outboard of the spring pivot mounts. That positively keeps the axle from shifting position as it articulates, even under full thrust.

 

[tbrya]

Ok, so what should I do first and how do I do that? I really am anxious to learn but I am fuzzy on the lingo. I understand caster but how do I fix it and where do I get these shims and how do they go in? Can you dumb it down for me a little. I plan on taking this to the local off road center but I hear from a lot of people that the guy is not the friendly type and I don't want to be discouraged by negativity. Is there an off road center near Central Michigan that any of you would recommend?

Thanks

Tbrya

 

[Old Dog]

Ok, so Is there an off road center near Central Michigan that any of you would recommend?

Thanks
Tbrya

If no one here knows of a shop in mich. Try asking the guys at this forum
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest - Powered by vBulletin
IMO that 327 you have is an all out race engine, It's not going to be on road friendly at all. If you want to race it find a shop that specializes in race jeeps. The average 4x4 center will be of no help to you. Otherweise figure on taking the 327 out and dropping a more stock small block in.
I would still like to know what you want to use this jeep for.

 

[TDHofstetter]

To fix your existing axle situation... you need to rotate both axles so the yokes point straight at each other, for starters. At each end of the axle is a "spring perch" that the leaf springs "perch" on. They may have been removed & welded back on in a different position to rotate the axles - you need to either (a) cut them back off and rotate them back where they belong, or (b) find out how far, in degrees, each axle has been rotated and install specially-made wedge-shaped shims between the spring perches and the springs. They make those shims in several different angles; you can buy 'em from any of a number of online vendors. They're shaped like woodsplitting wedges.

To install the shims, you need to loosen the u-bolts that wrap around the axle at each spring - don't REMOVE them, just LOOSEN them. The nuts nearest the Transfer Case (center of the Jeep) need to be loose enough to accomodate the thick end of the shim, the nuts nearest the bumpers only enough to accomodate the thin end. Work only ONE axle at a time. Jack up the Jeep by the BODY, leaving the wheels to sit on the ground, and as you raise the Jeep a space will open up between the perches and the springs - right where the shims go. Slip them into place, verify their positions, and tighten the u-bolts.

I agree with OldDog that this really isn't within the realm of an off-road shop - it's more of a high-performance shop that'd be prepared to deal with stuff like this. I know a couple guys who race AMCs... really REALLY FAST AMCs...

 

[tbrya]

Is that a shim below the axle on the left there in the picture below?

My buddy thought there might be a way to drop that Transfer Case to lessen the angle of the drive shaft once the axles are leveled out. Is there a way to actually do that?

I am going to a fabrication shop and a off road center tomorrow to see what they think. I will keep you posted. Thanks for all your advise, I am learning a lot.

Some of the pictures might be duplicates. I will try to get better ones next week.

 

[TDHofstetter]

Nope - not a shim. That's actually the spring perch.

The only way I can see to drop the Transfer Case in this case would be to lower the ENGINE, Transmission , and Transfer Case all as a unit. It's imperative that it all stay level - if not, one of the two Transfer Case output yokes - front or rear - will be at a reallly difficult-to-deal-with angle. Now... there ARE some aftermarket (read: "expensive") transfer cases that can be "clocked" (rotated around the Transmission ) so's to bring the drive shafts lower.

But... if this is going to be a fast Jeep, you're going to want to lose that lift anyway... and losing the lift will help level the drive shafts. Hot motors plus tall Jeeps tend to end in obituaries...

 

[tbrya]

Ok, I took in some pictures the local off road center and he seemed to know exactly what I was talking about. He stated that it needed a cross member installed in front of the oil pan to support the frame because the bumper is not enough. He wants to install something that goes from the frame to the front axle that still flexes and he also wants to complete the front stabilizer which he thought would improve control by about 40% by itself.

He also stated that I need these Rancho 9000 adjustable shocks instead of the skyjacker nitro 8000 shocks that I have now. These are about $400 for the set of 4 and seem really cool but do I really need them? What do you think about all that.

Total cost for install $1500.00 for me to feel safe driving on the highway which he said will be no problem.

Tbrya

 

[TDHofstetter]

OMG... are you actually MISSING that all-important heavy front crossmember??? It's gotta' be there - it's heavy, keeps the whole front end stiff & square. If it's not there, the whole left side of the frame can wag like a flag under steering pressure.

That overall pic of the Jeep showed a flat plate there; I just assumed the crossmember was under it like it's 'posed to be.

Frankly, I think the thing about those shocks is mostly BS, intended to sell you a set of expensive shocks. If the shocks you have never hit their limits, the automatic adjustability of the Nitros is fine for your purposes - I doubt the manual adjustability of the Ranchos will buy you much... I doubt that Jeep is ever going to see a very wide range of terrain. It's not built for rock crawling or mudding, it's a flat-ground Jeep.

...but YEAH - if it's missing that front crossmember, it WANTS one. That crossmember connects the top & bottom of each side rail to the top & bottom of the other side rail, making a "box" of sorts to stiffen the whole front end. It also ties together with the steering box.

 

[Old Dog]

OMG... are you actually MISSING that all-important heavy front crossmember??? It's gotta' be there - it's heavy, keeps the whole front end stiff & square. If it's not there, the whole left side of the frame can wag like a flag under steering pressure.

That overall pic of the Jeep showed a flat plate there; I just assumed the crossmember was under it like it's 'posed to be.

Frankly, I think the thing about those shocks is mostly BS, intended to sell you a set of expensive shocks. If the shocks you have never hit their limits, the automatic adjustability of the Nitros is fine for your purposes - I doubt the manual adjustability of the Ranchos will buy you much... I doubt that Jeep is ever going to see a very wide range of terrain. It's not built for rock crawling or mudding, it's a flat-ground Jeep.

...but YEAH - if it's missing that front crossmember, it WANTS one. That crossmember connects the top & bottom of each side rail to the top & bottom of the other side rail, making a "box" of sorts to stiffen the whole front end. It also ties together with the steering box.

X2 on what Tim said.
I can not believe someone would cut the front crossmember out, theres no reason to do that. Do you have a pic.
All I can say is before you hand someone that much money get a written guarantee that it's going to work.
I would take it for a test drive before they got any money.

 

[Old Dog]

In post #32, first pic. it sure looks like the crossmember is there. Please check and let us know.
I know guite a few people with cj's that have V8's with no extra bracing.
None of them have your problems.

 

[tbrya]

X2 on what Tim said.
I can not believe someone would cut the front crossmember out, theres no reason to do that. Do you have a pic.
All I can say is before you hand someone that much money get a written guarantee that it's going to work.
I would take it for a test drive before they got any money.

Here is a picture of the front of the jeep frame. Maybe they took it out to fit the Engine. The only frame support is under the Transmission and the front bumper. Nothing in between. Here is a few pics

 

[TDHofstetter]

The crossmember we're looking for should be directly underneath the radiator - it should be this one:

 

[Old Dog]

Like Tim said it should right between your grill and the bumper.