Clutch

[73 CJ5]

Looking for some suggestions on where to start. I am having trouble with shifting my three speed into gear, especially first at while noe moving at all. There has been no grinding, just super stiff. The clutch is pretty easy to press in and am wondering if it is too easy? Not sure where to start as this is a firts for me. Im doing a rear main and new exhaust this weekend so it would be a perfect time to get into it. Any suggestions on where to start?

Thanks a bunch in advance on this one.

 

[MN CJ7]

I will take a guess............ The Transmission and trasfer case had a fluid change with GL5 Gear Oil and a few months ago..... time goes by and Transmission starts to have hard shifting... Usualy starts with 1st and rev even at a stop.

I had this happen with my T-18 after a PM fluid change. My FSM said to use GL4 Gear Lube but I could not find it look at 20 places or so. Found GL5 everwhere so I used it.... BIG MISSTAKE

The larger HD trucks with large HP, big tow capacities, and bix axles needed a gear lube that kept metal to metal contact and wear. So that is where GL5 came from. But it often has cloride and/or sulfur based cleaning agents that do not do well with yellow metals.... brass, copper, brellium copper, etc.

Your Transmission and trasfer case(often) have yellow metals for syncros, bushings etc. Well yellow metals oxidize in air alone.... add the oxidizing agents above, elevated temps of summer and a hot operational gear / Transfer Case and you get some good corrosion. This is yellow metal like you see on brass and leather combos..... so its black and often sticky and get pitted and so forth.

On MY T-18 ...... I replaced the GL5 with a GL4 and the Transmission started to correct and shift better in days. After 2 wks was a great change... Few months later would not know I had the issue. SHOCKING!

GL4 can be had at NAPA for about $20 per gallon. I also like the AMSOIL MTF, manual transmisison fluid, it is a GL4 compaitble and lists many of the Transmission used in the Jeeps right on the lable. We have changed over dozens of jeeps to the correct fluid with great results. I wonder howmany jeeps are rebuilding Transmission that do not need to be rebuild.

Here is some more off my hard drive....

Here is a POST from me a few days ago.... I just copied and pasted here so hope nobody minds. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING BUT GL5 GEAR LUBE ON THE STORE SHELVES, NOTHING BUT.... The GL5 GEAR LUBE is the wrong fluid for old JEEP CJ Manual Transmissions and Transfer Cases, can also cause the SYNCROS to start rattle/noise and not work well or shift well. GL5 HAS THE WRONG.... LUBRICATION PROPERTIES.... AND.... IT IS CORROSIVE TO YELLOW METALS USED IN MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS. Some have posted, many posted, they could hardly shift after some time. Changed to GL4 and got better and quieter. I have done this dozens of times with great results.

So Please copy this to your hard drive and spread the word. This could stop a lot of JEEP MANUAL Transmission FROM FAILURE AND REBUILD BEFORE THEIR TIME. TRY IT YOU WILL SEE.................

The confusion with the AMSOIL product its rated as oil viscosity and not Gear Lube viscosity. The TWO OIL VISCOSITY SCALES cross or equal at these weights…..AMSOIL MTF is what I am going to change to since I do not WATER CROSS so the installed life will be of benefit. I currently have the Napa GL4 installed and very pleased with the correction of operation and is getting even better over time…. Almost no syncro rattle now

THE AMSOIL MARINE GEAR LUBE CAN ALSO BE USED FOR......... GL4 GEAR LUBE, it meets the GL4 spec, it can absorb more water before oil failure. SO... for those of you that play in the water alot that may be a good choice.

I have spoke to Amsoil Tech Support and the Gear Lube Engineer..... This is confusing to MARKET. Using Gear Lube Weight for gear lubes and OIL LUBE WEIGHT for the MTF product. They are changing their lit and web site to use Gear Lube Weight for MTF / GL4 Product. Should be done sometime next year. A Chem Eng In OIL here on JeepForum and I had a WEB Discussion on this in detail.... seems the Oil Weight and Gear Lube Weight cross here at these numbers. I’ts just confusing.



My POST few days ago............

It your syncors rattling. The gear lube on the shelves is GL5 and is a product made for the pumpkins of these big large towing capacity tow rigs. The GL5 has the wrong lubrication properties and is corrosive to the yellow metals in manual transmisisons. All the BorgWarner Transmissions in the older Jeeps should use Gear Lube.

The RIGHT GEAR LUBE is GL4...... GL4...... GL4.... Napa Sells it, call them and ask them to order you 1-2 gallons and its like $15 a gallon. After 50 to 100 miles it will start shifting better and should start to get quite. My T-18 did the same thing after I put the Gear Lube from the shelf.... it was GL5 and started shifting harder the the syncros starting rattle. Now almost silent and shift much better and its 32 years old.

Alternaitves Amsoil Syncromesh is a GL4 or Mobil 1 were both rated very high and and some of the least expensive on the list.



I have posted this up many times, many folks amazed with results. Frankly I am SHOCKED another fluid bad for our Little Jeeps ALL OVER THE SHELVES. I HAVE LOOKED YOU WILL ONLY FIND GL5 ON THE SHELVES. Good for your pumkins but not for the Transmission /transfer. Also add a magnet to both drain plugs to catch the metal particle. I also took a "stick magnet" and rubbed the bottom of Transmission /Transmission and got more out that way.

NAPA
SAE 85w90 Gear Oil GL4 (also meets GL3)
Part #SL24239
Mfg By Sta-Lube, sibisdary of CRC Industries
Bar Code 72213-24239
$15/gallon, phone order take 1-2 days to arrive, then pick it up, easy

I would also consider Amsoil MTF Syncromesh GL4 or the Mobil 1 Gear Lubes they were tops in performance and lower in cost that most. $8-10/quart.



Fred,
PS
Use GL5 Gear Lube in your Pumpkins and follow any recommendations for Limited slip or locker additives.






APPLICATIONS For GL4 and Amsoil MTF Gear Lube their GL4
Recommended for automotive and light-truck applications that require synchromesh Transmission fluid. Applications include manual transmissions and transaxles such as New Venture NV T350, NV 1500, NV 2550, NV 3500, NV 3550, NV 5600, and Tremec T-4 , T-5 , T-18 , T56, T-176 , TKO500, TKO600, TR 3450 and TR 3550. Replaces MTF-94 fluid for Land Rover, MG, and Mini Cooper. Replaces Honda Genuine MTF fluid for manual transaxles and Texaco MTX fluid. Not for use in engines, hypoid rear axles, Limited -slip or wet clutch applications.



T-5 .....Dexron III / Mercon, Mercon V use.....ATF.......
BUT....(except T-5 from 1985 to 1991 use GL4 Gear Lube)




1974 – 1976 Jeep FSM
Section B page 6…Manual Transmission and Transfer Case 80w Gear Lubricant of API GL 4 Quality
Section B page 6 Axles use 80w/90 Gear Lube API GL5 Qualtiy
TracLok use 80w/90 Limited Slip Gear Lube API GL5 Quality
Section B page 10 Manual Transmission (3 & 4 speed) and Dana 20 Transfer Case change fluid every 30,000 miles use SAE 80w/90 Gear Lube API GL 4 Quality
AXLES same frequency 30,000 miles use Gear Lube GL5
Section 6 Manual Transmissions T18a, T-150 , T15a
Page 6 & 7… T-150 say coat parts with Transmission fluid??
Page 13…. T-15 coat all parts with Transmission lubricant??
Page 24….. T-18 pour gear lubricant over all gears???
Page 26…. T-18 use SAE 80w or SAE 90w Gear Lubricant??
Section 8 Dana 20 Transfer Case FILL Transmission AND Transfer Case WITH 80W/90 GEAR LUBRICANT API GL 4 QUALITY





I came across the 1976 JEEP Owners Manual
1976 Jeep Owners Manual
Pg 95.. Manual Transmission (3 and 4 speed) & Transfer Case Model 20
Lubrication use SAE 80w Gear Lubricant of API GL 4

AXLES use 80w-90 of API GL5

 

[priceg]

Wow, what a BS sales pitch

 

[MN CJ7]

Play nice Sargent!!
I sell nothing in the oil, lubes, or greases.

Sorry to say if you do a little research the GL5 gear lube is all over the Jeep as well as other help forums causing issues and failures with manual transmissions.

I am researching a toyota clutch currently, 150k miles, to see how long they last and there are posts there about the GL5 there too. Countless other forum sites too.

Even the GL4 bottle says not corrosive to yellow metals. wonder why???

I have about 3 years of hard research on this GL5 and GL4 gear lube for manual Transmission . Have read everthing I could find on the subject.So pretty confortable in what I have posted.

If you have some research you would like me, and the other memebers to look at, please post up.

The 1982 Jeep FSM and the full model recal to replace the GL5 Transmission lubrication that was causing Transmission failures would be a good place to start research sargent. GL5 issues are real and affect many of us.



AS for this Thread... I was reading thru the pages of posts and saw this post that had been sitting for a month and not been addressed. Thought I would help out.

FURTHER THINGS FOR THE POSTER ASKING FOR HELP TO CHECK...
The clutch pedal free play should be looked at. I think the spec is 1-1.5" of clutch pedal before feeling resistance at the top of pedal. Put your foot or hand on the clutch pedal, push down, pedal should move the 1" or so before more resistance is felt.

Have a friend work the clutch pedal while you look from under the car. Should see a full stoke on the clutch fork looking on the side of bell housing. At the same time look the mechanical linkage on the lower firewall. There are pivot points the come loose, wear and cut down your throw / movement amount.

Poster did not say he changed Transmission lube...... but I have seen dozens and dozens of these fluid situations. My first guess is fluid related, second guess would be a linkage. Linkage would affect all gears more.

 

[ftwflh]

I would start by changing the Transmission oil with a good 80w90 gear lube(that is all the made in the 70s ) Then check that the clutch is adjusted to proper specs

 

[priceg]

Play nice Sargent!!
I sell nothing in the oil, lubes, or greases.

Sorry to say if you do a little research the GL5 gear lube is all over the Jeep as well as other help forums causing issues and failures with manual transmissions.

I am researching a toyota clutch currently, 150k miles, to see how long they last and there are posts there about the GL5 there too. Countless other forum sites too.

Even the GL4 bottle says not corrosive to yellow metals. wonder why???

I have about 3 years of hard research on this GL5 and GL4 gear lube for manual Transmission . Have read everthing I could find on the subject.So pretty confortable in what I have posted.

If you have some research you would like me, and the other memebers to look at, please post up.

The 1982 Jeep FSM and the full model recal to replace the GL5 Transmission lubrication that was causing Transmission failures would be a good place to start research sargent. GL5 issues are real and affect many of us.



AS for this Thread... I was reading thru the pages of posts and saw this post that had been sitting for a month and not been addressed. Thought I would help out.

FURTHER THINGS FOR THE POSTER ASKING FOR HELP TO CHECK...
The clutch pedal free play should be looked at. I think the spec is 1-1.5" of clutch pedal before feeling resistance at the top of pedal. Put your foot or hand on the clutch pedal, push down, pedal should move the 1" or so before more resistance is felt.

Have a friend work the clutch pedal while you look from under the car. Should see a full stoke on the clutch fork looking on the side of bell housing. At the same time look the mechanical linkage on the lower firewall. There are pivot points the come loose, wear and cut down your throw / movement amount.

Poster did not say he changed Transmission lube...... but I have seen dozens and dozens of these fluid situations. My first guess is fluid related, second guess would be a linkage. Linkage would affect all gears more.

My research consists of hundreds, yes hundreds of Transmission overhauls, both manual and automatics, and I have not seen any evidence to substantiate your claim.

 

[MN CJ7]

Wow, what a BS sales pitch

My research consists of hundreds, yes hundreds of Transmission overhauls, both manual and automatics, and I have not seen any evidence to substantiate your claim.

Well..... What are you using or suggesting for jeep manual transmision fluid?

Are you trying to tell me that any fluid will work in a jeep manual Transmission ?

This is a factual type of site.

 

[priceg]

Well..... What are you using or suggesting for jeep manual transmision fluid?

Are you trying to tell me that any fluid will work in a jeep manual Transmission ?

This is a factual type of site.

FACT, I have never overhauled any Transmission because of poor choice of oil. Fact: ALL auto manufactures have tried all types of oils to get certain results. FACT: Their will always be a snake oil salesman trying to convince the general consumer that his product is better than the rest. FACT: My JEEP T-176 runs on DEXTRON. SO. pedal your BS on some other site.

 

[BusaDave9]

I am not even going to pretend to be an expert on the oil standards set by American Petroleum Institute. I just started to google results when I saw this thread. Here are a couple of links I found:
Answers.com - Whats the difference between gl4 and gl5 gear oils
Here is a quote from the above site:

GL-5 is not the latest and greatest improvement over GL-4; unlike oil classifications where higher classification numbers mean tougher standards and backward compatiblity. It is important to know what type of gears you are lubricating, their applications and follow the manufacturer's recommendations! More information can be found at Welcome To The API Website.

Here is another document to check out from the American Petroleum Institute:

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/1560.pdf

 

[jeepy]

Not going to get in on the lubrication argument.

If when you are starting to move your jeep, and you let up on the clutch, and it starts to move when the pedal is still close to the floor, then you may just have an adjustment problem. That would mean that when you depress the pedal to shift, the clutch might not be disengaging enough. The engaging/disengaging of the clutch should take place in the middle of the clutches travel. If it's too low, you adjust. If it's too high, you try to adjust, but usually need to replace worn clutch parts.

In your case, most likely too low and out of adjustment.
Also all of those parts in the clutck linkages wear out and become sloppy sometimes causing problems such as you describe.

 

[Glass84CJ]

I used Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube that is rated GL5. It was recommend by many fellow Jeepers here and on another site, and my tranny has never sounded better. I'll stay with that.

 

[73CJ]

Wow, what a BS sales pitch

Nasty.

There may be something to it. Lets talk facts and quotes. I never paid any attention, now I will look into it.

I guess I missed the sales pitch part. . .

Thanks MN CJ7

 

[73CJ]

Well after some looking for facts - from the Benz World web site, I'm convinced. Thanks Castrol.

GL4 vs GL5 gear oil, the plot thickens. - Page 2 - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

Benz World Post
Dog Taxi
BenzWorld Member

Date registered: Dec 2005
Vehicle: 1957 404 FireMog
Location: Rhode Island, U.S.A.
Posts: GM 151


Castrol says
Hi Guys,

I have an Email from castrol dated July 27, 2007 about GL4 vs. GL5.

This is an excerpt:

"API GL-5 gear oil designates service of hypoid and other types of gears
commonly found in rear axles. A GL-4 oil may be employed in certain manual
transmissions.

These differences are mainly distinguished by the level of active additives
employed in the product. Different applications require different additive
levels and different component materials can be affected by the levels of
additives present in the lubricant.

Having said that GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils are not compatible and
manufacturer's recommendations should be adhered to. They cannot meet the
same specifications and the product performance and tests are different.

Typically, a GL-5 gear oil will have about 2 times the active additive level
of a GL-4 product. This additional additive can cause problems with yellow
metals like brass or bronze."

Take it for what it's worth. I put fresh Castrol GL-4 in my tranny and it shifts great now.
Please note too that bronze bearings (bushings) are made from a alloy such as “bronzalloy” or “oilite” that is softer than the alloy used to make syncro rings. Also the bearing would be subject to stress the entire time the transmission is working while the syncro rings see intermittent stresses of short duration. This may be why bearings could be affected but not syncro rings.
I had to get it from Lubrication products specialists and had to buy a 5 gallon bucket.

 

[BusaDave9]

I think it's agreed (among most of us) that GL-4 oils should be used in manual transmissions but I really thinkthe key to 73 CJ5's problems are when he says it's hard to get it in gear when the jeep is not moving at all. That points to an adjustment problem with the clutch linkage. This has been pointed out by MN CJ7, ftwflh and jeepy.
There should be just over an inch of free play before the clutch starts to disengage. I say this is the first thing to check.