Misc Drive shaft angle/Rough County Suspension

[Genaz]

Hi. I installed a Rough Country 2.5" lift kit in my '79 CJ7 . Despite the instructions, and original set up, it would not go in axle-over-spring. The front shocks were completely compressed, and sway bar links were too short. So, disassembled and installed spring-over-axle and everything fit fine. However, now my rear drive shaft is at an extreme angle. Rough Country recommended flipping the shims 180 degrees, but that didn't help. I'm pretty frustrated at this point. Does anyone have any suggestions? Do the shims maybe have to be switched to the bottom of the leaf spring?

 

[CJ]

Going SOA puts your drive shaft at an impossible angle, you probably need a double cardan drive shaft. Some thing like this.

CJ Rear Drive Shaft, Double Cardan

CJ Rear Drive Shaft, Double Cardan 1310 series rear drive shaft for Jeep CJ. Double cardan type, also known as a CV. This is what you need if your Jeep is lifted and you are experiencing vibrations or other problems due to increased angles. Unless it has already been upgraded, you will need a...

4xshaft.com

 

[Genaz]

Going SOA puts your drive shaft at an impossible angle, you probably need a double cardan drive shaft. Some thing like this.

View attachment 101712

CJ Rear Drive Shaft, Double Cardan

CJ Rear Drive Shaft, Double Cardan 1310 series rear drive shaft for Jeep CJ. Double cardan type, also known as a CV. This is what you need if your Jeep is lifted and you are experiencing vibrations or other problems due to increased angles. Unless it has already been upgraded, you will need a...

4xshaft.com

I had heard that might be necessary. Don't know why AOS didn't work. Rough Country also got back to me and said flip the shims back around and that will help some. Looks like I'm taking this apart again.

 

[CJ]

I had heard that might be necessary. Don't know why AOS didn't work. Rough Country also got back to me and said flip the shims back around and that will help some. Looks like I'm taking this apart again.

I think your getting your terms confused...
The shims are at most 4 degrees. By going SOA you have added more than 5 more inches of lift for a total of about 7 or 8 inches.
Pictures of your setup would be nice.
Who did the welding of your spring perches and how did you degree in your pinion angle (how many degrees).

The top axle is SOA (spring over axle) and the lower is SUA (spring under axle).

 

[TSB8C]

I have Rough Country 4" lift springs as part of a kit that included the drop pitman arm and longer sway bar links and spacers to drop the skid plate under the tranny and Transfer Case . I also have 4 degree shims on the rear axle. I'm running axle over springs (the axle sits on top of the leaf springs) with no issues concerning drive shaft angle. I also have a 700R4 auto tranny and a Novak adaptor for the Dana 300 , creating a bit longer drive train and still no issues with rear drive shaft angle.

 

[CJ]

I have Rough Country 4" lift springs as part of a kit that included the drop pitman arm and longer sway bar links and spacers to drop the skid plate under the tranny and Transfer Case . I also have 4 degree shims on the rear axle. I'm running axle over springs (the axle sits on top of the leaf springs) with no issues concerning drive shaft angle. I also have a 700R4 auto tranny and a Novak adaptor for the Dana 300 , creating a bit longer drive train and still no issues with rear drive shaft angle.

~~~ The front shocks were completely compressed, and sway bar links were too short. So, disassembled and installed spring-over-axle and everything fit fine. However, now my rear drive shaft is at an extreme ~~~

I agree @TSB8C but in the above post he stated he went SOA. That's why I believe the terminology is incorrect and I requested pictures.
This does not make sense...

 

[TSB8C]

Yea, going SOA changes a lot. Then add in the questions about how the perches were welded (angles, alignment, etc). If done right, no need for wedges. If the perches were welded straight on, then substantial wedges and a drop kit for the Transfer Case are in order, along with the double cardan drive shaft.

 

[Genaz]

Thanks for all the input, guys. A lot to answer here.
First, I've made no alterations to the spring or shock mounts, doesn't look like previous owner did anything either. Pictures are how it is now, with SOA. Everything in front end fits nice (sway bar links, shocks) but brake lines are a little stretched. Second and third pictures are the rear end, same thing SOA. Shocks are correct, but drive shaft is a this extreme angle.
Frustrated with Rough Country! The instructions say right at the top "Axle over Spring", so that's how I started. First call was because pictures, illustrations on the instructions and parts for sway bar links weren't there. I was told, "Oh, we use the same instructions for 2.5" kit as the 4" kit. Your sway bar links will work with 2.5" kit." They don't! They're about 6" too short and the shocks are compressed all the way. So I switched it to SOA and this is what you see now. Rough Country swears it should work. But everytime I call it's flip the shims around, No but the back the way they were! Oh, here's sway bar links from the 4" kit. But they were eyelet and I have stud.
What am I missing?! I've done lift kits before but on Fords and Chevy's. This is my first Jeep. And I'm tearing my hair out!
Thanks for letting me rant! Any counsel on this is greatly appreciated.

 

[Genaz]

PS: my preference would be to have it axle over spring. It's sitting a bit high and I don't want to have to invest in new tires and wheels. LOL

 

[TSB8C]

Well you're definitely SOA, which means you have about 5" of lift before the 2.5" spring lift. So now with 7.5" of lift, no wonder your drive shaft angle is so extreme. I also notice in the pic that the pinion angle (rear diff position) is straight on, not angled up at all. I also see no drop in the skid plate to angle the Transfer Case output down any. And you definitely need some longer brake lines for that much lift.

Going back to axle over springs would mean cutting off and re-welding the spring perches to the under side of the axle tubes; although one pic (while a bit dark) seems to show what might be the original perches still on the bottom side of the tube. You would also need shorter shocks. Interested to know what your drag link angle is. Any drop in the pitman arm?

 

[Genaz]

Thanks! I really don't like it this high and would prefer to go back to AOS. When this came out of a barn in TN, the original owner had the factory springs over axle, but the drive shaft angle wasn't that extreme, because no additional lift. I think I'd like to see about cutting off and rewelding the perches as you suggest. But wouldn't the sway bar links be too short again like before when I had it AOS?

 

[CJ]

Thanks! I really don't like it this high and would prefer to go back to AOS. When this came out of a barn in TN, the original owner had the factory springs over axle, but the drive shaft angle wasn't that extreme, because no additional lift. I think I'd like to see about cutting off and rewelding the perches as you suggest. But wouldn't the sway bar links be too short again like before when I had it AOS?

How did you have it setup as AOS / SUA? That would mean your original spring perches are still on the axle. Do you have the original perches on the bottom as well as the ones that were added to the top?
A good picture of where the perches would help...

 

[Genaz]

Wait... So you're saying those perches on the top were added? You'll have to forgive my inexperience with jeeps, or even problems putting a lift kit in. Not very impressive for an old man who started his career as a tool and die maker. Never had this much problem. It actually went in very easy AOS, but I just had those issues with the sway bar links too short and the shocks being too long. Rough Country swore those are the shortest shocks they have.

 

[TSB8C]

Thanks! I really don't like it this high and would prefer to go back to AOS. When this came out of a barn in TN, the original owner had the factory springs over axle, but the drive shaft angle wasn't that extreme, because no additional lift. I think I'd like to see about cutting off and rewelding the perches as you suggest. But wouldn't the sway bar links be too short again like before when I had it AOS?

Yes, you will have to deal with the sway bar links to go back to axle over springs and still keep your 2.5" spring lift you installed. But the drive shaft angle will be much better by removing the 5" or so of lift the SOA conversion added.

And yes, those spring perches on top of the axles were added by someone. That's not how it came originally. The springs were under the axles with no perches to move them to the tops of the axles. In a traditional SOA conversion, the perches are cut from the bottoms of the axles and re-welded to the tops, usually also involving a bit of geometry to set the needed angles to accommodate the pinion angle so the drive shaft is not so steep. If you've got both sets of perches (bottom and top) that is a first for me to see.

 

[Genaz]

Wow, great information. Thanks! Now the search goes on for someone to do some cutting and welding for me. Only had it a couple of years, and I wait all winter to drive it here up north. Hope I get this squared away before summers gone!

 

[CJ]

Wait... So you're saying those perches on the top were added? You'll have to forgive my inexperience with jeeps, or even problems putting a lift kit in. Not very impressive for an old man who started his career as a tool and die maker. Never had this much problem. It actually went in very easy AOS, but I just had those issues with the sway bar links too short and the shocks being too long. Rough Country swore those are the shortest shocks they have.

1) Yes the top perches were added. Stock are under the axle.
2) If the shock and sway bar mounts were altered for Spring Over then that would account for the improper shock compression and sway bar link distance when you tried Spring Under axle. (5 inches difference)

We really need detailed pictures of the perches, shock mounts and sway bar mounts.
Do you still have the perches Under the axle?

 

[Genaz]

Maybe these are better.

 

[TSB8C]

Those are quite clear. I see the original spring perches under the axles. I also see a different sway bar and the connects that aren't stock either. Those also don't look like CJ spring plates. You have an extremely altered setup there. No wonder stuff isn't matching up.

 

[CJ]

Those are quite clear. I see the original spring perches under the axles. I also see a different sway bar and the connects that aren't stock either. Those also don't look like CJ spring plates. You have an extremely altered setup there. No wonder stuff isn't matching up.

Agree, look how the top shock mount has been moved up. You need to decide what you want to do. We can supply all the pictures and instructions.
The best thing is the hardest part of going back to SUA is done - the perches are still in place.

Upper moved shock mount (booger welds):

 

[Genaz]

Yeah, I see it now. Can I get the pictures and instructions, please?! That would be great. I'm talking to a guy tomorrow who can cut and re-weld components for me. It sounds like I probably have to source new spring plates too.