full width questions

[donald]

I am thinking about going full width on my 81 CJ7 I have a 360 with T-18 tranny and a Dana 20 Transfer Case . I already decided I am going to go with chevy axles, what chevy had Dana 44 's or dana 60's up front and 14 bolt rear? I do not plan on running anything bigger then a 35" tire and as of right now I do not plan on building a hardcore rock crawler but would like to be able to tackle those obsticles if need be. I was also reading about reinforcing my frame where does the frame need to be reinforced at? How much of a pain is it to convert to full width?

 

[BajaEdition]

I am thinking about going full width on my 81 CJ7 I have a 360 with t-18 tranny and a dana 20 transfer case. I already decided I am going to go with chevy axles, what chevy had dana 44's or dana 60's up front and 14 bolt rear? I do not plan on running anything bigger then a 35" tire and as of right now I do not plan on building a hardcore rock crawler but would like to be able to tackle those obsticles if need be. I was also reading about reinforcing my frame where does the frame need to be reinforced at? How much of a pain is it to convert to full width?

Hey Donald, the expense is how r
far do you want to go. And you soundlike you are asking for advice, So let me ask you, if you do not want to get bigger than 35s or go hard core, then why do you want those axles? A D60 and a 14 bolt are huge and you will be giving up any clearance you gain with the 35s. My advice would be 44s all the way around, you can get them from Jeep cheap, like JK Rubi axles going for around 1500 clams each, new, set up with 4.10s and with lockers, Just try to build a axle for that, the pumpkins are smal, they will handle the 35s, and all you will have to do is cut the mounting brackets and old spring brackets and weld on spring perches. buy new drive shafts. devise new steering linkages and not much else, you are going have to do the driveshaft and steering work anyway. I would guess around 4 grand would do it, finding the gear you want, building and adapting, I would guess a bit more and you would need to get larger tires just to get the clearance you would get with the 35s and the 44s.
But then I am a bit of a realist, and do not subscribe to the "I need bigger because my freinds say so" myths. I mean to offer good advice here, not discourage you, I would hate to see you spend that kind of money without knowing why, and the alternatives.

 

[donald]

I want tough axles because I have seen to many people blow out and axle when getting heavy on the gas pedal. I just want to build me an all around trail rig. I have the original AMC20 rear end still in it and I want that thing gone ASAP so I figured if I am going to replace it why not go strong and big.

 

[Old Dog]

I want tough axles because I have seen to many people blow out and axle when getting heavy on the gas pedal. I just want to build me an all around trail rig. I have the original AMC 20 rear end still in it and I want that thing gone ASAP so I figured if I am going to replace it why not go strong and big.

As baja said, if you go 60 and 14 bolt with only 35" tires you are going to be dragging them on everything.

The trick to being a good wheeler is "less throttle, more finesse"

 

[xj287]

another option would be Dana 44 's out of a scout 2, they're still fairly easy to find and dirt cheep. but if you are set on the D60/14 bolt combo look for K20 and K30's built from '73-'87. you would be loosing a little clearence with those axles, about an inch and a half over the Dana 44 , and you'll need the change the u-joint yokes, or get custom drive shafts. good luck!

 

[LongHorn]

I am thinking about going full width on my 81 CJ7 I have a 360 with t-18 tranny and a dana 20 transfer case. I already decided I am going to go with chevy axles, what chevy had dana 44's or dana 60's up front and 14 bolt rear? I do not plan on running anything bigger then a 35" tire and as of right now I do not plan on building a hardcore rock crawler but would like to be able to tackle those obsticles if need be. I was also reading about reinforcing my frame where does the frame need to be reinforced at? How much of a pain is it to convert to full width?

IMHO 60's are overkill on 35", but take a look at the pic's of my rig.
I did the fullwidth 60's front & rear. Also a good time for a shackle reversal.
I did the Scout 44 front & rear on my wife's rig, just remember you'll have to cut & clock the front knuckles to fix the caster angle & pinion angle issuses.

 

[donald]

IMHO 60's are overkill on 35", but take a look at the pic's of my rig.
I did the fullwidth 60's front & rear. Also a good time for a shackle reversal.
I did the Scout 44 front & rear on my wife's rig, just remember you'll have to cut & clock the front knuckles to fix the caster angle & pinion angle issuses.

Nice looking rig! What do you mean cut & Clock the knuckles? I am trying to do plenty of research before I even try to attempt this project. Did you use the same springs or did you go with something different?
What year scout should I be looking at? Is there any other vehicles that have Dana 44 's? I was under my toyota Sequoia the other day and noticed that it has a removable third member like the ford 9" any body know anything about these axles

 

[LongHorn]

Nice looking rig! What do you mean cut & Clock the knuckles? I am trying to do plenty of research before I even try to attempt this project. Did you use the same springs or did you go with something different?
What year scout should I be looking at? Is there any other vehicles that have d44's? I was under my toyota Sequoia the other day and noticed that it has a removable third member like the ford 9" any body know anything about these axles

What year scout should I be looking at? 76' & later IMHO.

The caster on Scout D44's is set to where any lift at all it won't track unless you cut the knuckles off & rotate the back then weld them back on. It's complicated. They are wider than Jeep wide track axles, but more narrow than full size truck axles like mine. A set of full size Jeep 44' would work, if you don't mind 6 lug axles.

 

[LongHorn]

I have been told that early Isuzu Troopers came with a disc brake equipped Dana 44 .:drool:

 

[LongHorn]

Nice looking rig! What do you mean cut & Clock the knuckles? I am trying to do plenty of research before I even try to attempt this project. Did you use the same springs or did you go with something different?
What year scout should I be looking at? Is there any other vehicles that have d44's? I was under my toyota Sequoia the other day and noticed that it has a removable third member like the ford 9" any body know anything about these axles

Oh & I used 4" lift Wrangler width springs . Then did a fullwidth axle conversion, shackle reversal & high steering.

 

[xj287]

scout 2's had Dana 44 axles thier entire production run from 1970-1981. the early scout 80-and 800's use the weaker dana 27 and 30 axles, you dont want those.

 

[BajaEdition]

I want tough axles because I have seen to many people blow out and axle when getting heavy on the gas pedal. I just want to build me an all around trail rig. I have the original AMC 20 rear end still in it and I want that thing gone ASAP so I figured if I am going to replace it why not go strong and big.

funny, I run past those guys doing heavy foot work all the time, running a vintage d27 and a tapered Dana 44 2 piece axle. Butt then I do not do heavy foot work.
Wheeling for a while, or for a life ? The difference is learning how to wheel and when not to wheel. Heavy foot work will kill a D60 also, as long as wheels are spinning and then hook up, things will break, the experienced wheeler does not spin tires when he does not have to, and he goes more places than those who do. He also knows when not to do an obstacle, he may watch guys do them, and listen to the snapping sound of the axles when the give, but he, thinking with his upper head, decides he does not need to spend money fixing things not broken on that obstacle. I guess I mean he decides to be uncool and driving instead of cool and being towed home only to spend more money on parts.
Your model 20 is not a bad axle, get a single piece axle kit for it, it will rock. Do they make a full floating conversion for it? that would make it as strong as a D60, here is the skinny, as long as it is semi floating, the shaft supports the weight on the axle, as soon as you full float it the weight is transferred to the housing so now you are no longer having the stress on the shaft and it will do more work.
Many guys run that 20 and never have a problem.

 

[LongHorn]

scout 2's had D44 axles thier entire production run from 1970-1981. the early scout 80-and 800's use the weaker dana 27 and 30 axles, you dont want those.

But the early Scout 2's used drum brakes & you don't want any part of that.

 

[xj287]

But the early Scout 2's used drum brakes & you don't want any part of that.

thats true, but I tend to think if anyone is capable of doing this kind of axle swap, then doing a disk brake upgrade should be super easy...but thats just me.

 

[LongHorn]

funny, I run past those guys doing heavy foot work all the time, running a vintage d27 and a tapered D44 2 piece axle. Butt then I do not do heavy foot work.
Wheeling for a while, or for a life ? The difference is learning how to wheel and when not to wheel. Heavy foot work will kill a D60 also, as long as wheels are spinning and then hook up, things will break, the experienced wheeler does not spin tires when he does not have to, and he goes more places than those who do. He also knows when not to do an obstacle, he may watch guys do them, and listen to the snapping sound of the axles when the give, but he, thinking with his upper head, decides he does not need to spend money fixing things not broken on that obstacle. I guess I mean he decides to be uncool and driving instead of cool and being towed home only to spend more money on parts.
Your model 20 is not a bad axle, get a single piece axle kit for it, it will rock. Do they make a full floating conversion for it? that would make it as strong as a D60, here is the skinny, as long as it is semi floating, the shaft supports the weight on the axle, as soon as you full float it the weight is transferred to the housing so now you are no longer having the stress on the shaft and it will do more work.
Many guys run that 20 and never have a problem.

I can agree to most of the first half of this statement, but I'd have to say IMHO the second half is way off base. The housing of the "Model 20" is not as strong as a D60 nor is the ring & pinion. The brakes & bearings on the half ton axles are also smaller so if your planning big tires it's a wise move. They no longer make "full floating conversion" for a M20 that I'm aware of. Even when they did, you were transferring the load to a inadequate housing with thin tubes. In my neck of the woods I can pick up either rear axle for the same $100 bucks.
Granted I've seen a lot of guys running M20's on the the trail. I have also towed a lot of them home. I have a friend who insists on running a Dana 30 front end & a M20 rear with 38" boggers, He's blown it up spectacularly on many, many occasions. He's bought every thing "Warn" has ever made for it. Oh yeah he owns a Shop called "Off Road Unlimited" so it's a advertising thing for him. he wants every body to run that stuff cause he needs the business. He gets his repair work cheap with no sweat off his brow. He also brings a trailer when he's wheeling. BTW "Warn" has stopped warranting his "lifetime guarantee"axles.

I think a lot of differences opinions come from different terrain. I know you can do a lot to fineness you way through the rocks & trails in some places. IMHO the deep black gumbo mud of the south can be a great equalizer, yes skill helps. But wheel speed & momentum get you through. Sometimes you just have to stand on the loud petal & let her sing.
Give me the 60's.

Like I always say "Opinions are like holes, everybody has one. That's mine.

 

[LongHorn]

thats true, but I tend to think if anyone is capable of doing this kind of axle swap, then doing a disk brake upgrade should be super easy...but thats just me.

Your right, it's only money.

 

[BajaEdition]

I can agree to most of the first half of this statement, but I'd have to say IMHO the second half is way off base. The housing of the "Model 20" is not as strong as a D60 nor is the ring & pinion. The brakes & bearings on the half ton axles are also smaller so if your planning big tires it's a wise move. They no longer make "full floating conversion" for a M20 that I'm aware of. Even when they did, you were transferring the load to a inadequate housing with thin tubes. In my neck of the woods I can pick up either rear axle for the same $100 bucks.
Granted I've seen a lot of guys running M20's on the the trail. I have also towed a lot of them home. I have a friend who insists on running a Dana 30 front end & a M20 rear with 38" boggers, He's blown it up spectacularly on many, many occasions. He's bought every thing "Warn" has ever made for it. Oh yeah he owns a Shop called "Off Road Unlimited" so it's a advertising thing for him. he wants every body to run that stuff cause he needs the business. He gets his repair work cheap with no sweat off his brow. He also brings a trailer when he's wheeling. BTW "Warn" has stopped warranting his "lifetime guarantee"axles.

I think a lot of differences opinions come from different terrain. I know you can do a lot to fineness you way through the rocks & trails in some places. IMHO the deep black gumbo mud of the south can be a great equalizer, yes skill helps. But wheel speed & momentum get you through. Sometimes you just have to stand on the loud petal & let her sing.
Give me the 60's.

Like I always say "Opinions are like holes, everybody has one. That's mine.

I can give you that, I can also point out we are not running 38 boggers but 35s. I also cannot vouch for the Terrain in Vislik Germany.
So, being that the rest of the answer depends on the full floating answer.
I guess that is because I see 10 snapped axles to every set of ring and pinion failures. And the major reason for shaft snaps is not the spike load it goes under, but the daily wear and tear an axle does. axles develop the twist and weak areas during DD duty. They snap when you stress the weakened axle. by full floating an axle you relieve a major portion of the load off the axle shaft, putting it where it belongs and once this is done the acle shaft is able to take more abuse ontrail.
Now being a former mudder, been 24 years since I moved from Louisiana, I can see your love of heavy iron, I also have developed a love of smaller iron since I left. And I guess that can affect an answer given. But then I think if he wants to go bullet proof we should advise him to go with Rockwells.

 

[LongHorn]

If I was Living i Germany. I would hunt up some "Unimog" portal axles.
But that just me.

 

[LongHorn]

 

[LongHorn]

:drool: