JR's Planning ground up! - Please Help!

[JR74CJ5]

Hey guys!

So I'm thinking next fall / winter may be able to begin doing a full re-build. I want to list my basic desires, and plans, and would like any and all feedback from everyone with opinions and some knowledge!

So from the start, here's a basic list:

• Road and Trail: I do not want to have to tow the old girl to the trails.
• Frame: I'd like to not have my frame crack "every time" I'm out. I am envisioning either a build as I've seen on this site from steel tubing and realize what is involved to achieve a usable frame. This would allow for full custom set up, and cheaper than the aftermarket options. My frame has been "fixed" too much, and just reinforcement and boxing is probably not the best option. A new frame of some sort is (I assume) needed.
• Suspension: I would like to remain a low center of gravity, and high under clearance. My plan is Maximum of 35" tires, though I may stick with my 33's for a while, want the option and set up "ready" for 35's. I am not against trimming the body for clearances. I want mainly a suspension lift (leaf springs if staying with spring style suspension) and am envisioning the Old Man Emu "YJ" 2.5" wide and 3.5" Spring under as seen here. I want to keep shackle and body lifts to minimum if any. Max 1" on either. After which I realize tie rod flip and other modifications for steering and driveshaft geometry would be necessary.
• Roll bar/cage: I'm going to keep my existing roll cage, but revise attachment to the frame instead of just the body. I've seen some nice mounts online like this I believe I can duplicate . May extend the cage towards the rear with modification at some point.
• Drive-train: I'm torn. I want a lower crawl ratio. I currently have a T-15 / Dana 20 / 4.27 in diffs. This brings me around 26:1 :down: I manage with this, but would rather be in the 50-60:1 area. Again since I want road drivable too, I can not simply up the gearing too much in diffs. This leads me to either the T-18 or SM420 / SM465. So From the engine to the Transfer Case , I am undecided. I would like to possibly either FI a AMC V8 (360 / 401 or even keep AMC 304 ) and find T-18 for jeep or convert a ford T-18 in. Maybe then do the tera low kit for Dana 20 ? Or would a Dana 300 swap be feasible / better with that tranny anyway? I would like to minimize adapters for obvious lenght restrictions in a CJ5 , and also the costs of those little bad boys!
• Diffs: I have had (so far) no troubles with my Dana 30 front and Dana 44 Rear. I have chrome mollys in the rear with factory "trac-Lok" and open front. I'm thinking of keeping these diffs and possibly throwing disc brake kits at them, or adapting a Dana 44 for the front. I know there are stronger units out there, but will I actually need them? Ford 9" etc?

All the other stuff, cosmetics and seat / dash builds and wiring, I have a pretty solid plan for from ideas around here...

But would love the input, suggestions, criticism, etc from everyone. I have a year to plan this (if I stay on schedule) and want to do it right. I know ultimately its my choice, but want the input!

Nothing barred or unwanted here! All input requested!

Financially, I'm alright. Not a "rich guy" by any means, but it shouldn't be an obstacle. However, I enjoy doing thins just as good for less $.

Cheers!
~ Jr

 

[Torxhead]

So it sounds like to start with a frame swap from a later model -5, possibly an aftermarket one. I am not sure if it a direct swap though. They are supposed to flex anyway so maybe yours is probably quite fatigued by now, my '86 has had quite a bit of welding on it also.

 

[Petescj]

Are you committed to rebuilding the CJ5 or would a CJ7 fit your needs? You can probably get a nicer boxed CJ7 frame / tub in your area. That leaves you open to grabbing someones "project" for parts.

From what Im reading about your plan a little more wheelbase may be something youd enjoy as well. For 33s to 35s those axles should be good coupled with a T-18 and Dana 300 . Id keep spare shafts for the Dana 30 until you can upgrade those especially if you get the desire to put some type locker in there.

Your probably gonna want to go with the Ford version of the T-18 from the info I gathered. For a small sampling read here:

http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/full-size-jeep-t-18-dana-20-a-16561/

Your gonna have to decide on your engine. I can get Waggy engines from junkyards around here fairly cheap. I know out West its a bit more difficult. You cant go wrong with a 360 in my opinion. The one I swapped in my 78 CJ5 was awesome.

Love your suspension choice. Trim and stay low. My CJ5 was a bit bulky in the middle though with a 1 in Transfer Case drop and the stock skid. Your gonna want to research this.

Good luck and keep us updated on your plan.

 

[IOPort51]

you asked for opinions soooo.


I would build a frame, I would have a great time building a frame and being in control of shock mounts and roll bar mounts. I also think that a 1/8" or maybe 3/16" wall rectangular tube would be a lot more serviceable than anything made from formed steel. A little more weight, would be interesting to crunch the numbers and see about how much, and many care free days of beating it against the rocks. Big job, lots of money, major engineering/design problems (read opportunities). And as a bonus you get to justify new toys if you do not own the fabrication equipment.

If I had the Rubicon trail in my back yard? my Transmission weapon of choice would be a wide ratio Ford T-18 with adapter to a Dana 300 TC. As far as cost efficiency I think that the Ford wide ratio is plentiful enough and cheep enough that the whole package could be put together for about a Grand and you would never have to look back. I believe that this package, even with the adapter, will be your shortest option and give the most bang for your buck. This package would also allow a decent ride on asphalt as well.

 

[Old Dog]

Well IMO by the time you buy and rebuild a Dana 300 , than add a 4:1 kit you might as well throw another few hundred at it and get an Atlas.
I'd also get some wider axles for a little more stability. A set of 44's would be enough for 33's or 35's. If you do just keep the 30, at least get some after market axles for it with the bigger 5-760 u-joints. (ask me how I know)
You really need lockers for playing in the rocks.
Also and it might just be me, but I would do a TF999 . You just can't beat an auto in the rocks. But it might be kinda long in a 5.

 

[JR74CJ5]

Excellent! Keep em coming guys!

I'm going to "talk out" each post below. Cheers Guys!

~ Jr

 

[JR74CJ5]

So it sounds like to start with a frame swap from a later model -5, possibly an aftermarket one. I am not sure if it a direct swap though. They are supposed to flex anyway so maybe yours is probably quite fatigued by now, my '86 has had quite a bit of welding on it also.

Yes! It has had a lot of welding before me, and a lot since me! lol I can not keep the rear Cross member (not bumper / cross member I replaced that with custom build) that e-brake linkage hooks to where it should be! It keeps breaking loose. I havent been able (or willing rather) to remove the tube so i can really get on each side and weld it good. Have tacked it in twice, and its broken loose twice.

I like the idea of a swap from another 5, and possibly gain the easier for wide track etc benefits?

I'm still leaning towards building my own for complete control of set up from the start.

Thanks Torxhead! Let me know as this progresses any more input you have !

Are you committed to rebuilding the CJ5 or would a CJ7 fit your needs? You can probably get a nicer boxed CJ7 frame / tub in your area. That leaves you open to grabbing someones "project" for parts.

From what Im reading about your plan a little more wheelbase may be something youd enjoy as well. For 33s to 35s those axles should be good coupled with a T-18 and Dana 300 . Id keep spare shafts for the Dana 30 until you can upgrade those especially if you get the desire to put some type locker in there.

Your probably gonna want to go with the Ford version of the T-18 from the info I gathered. For a small sampling read here:

http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/full-size-jeep-t-18-dana-20-a-16561/

Your gonna have to decide on your engine. I can get Waggy engines from junkyards around here fairly cheap. I know out West its a bit more difficult. You cant go wrong with a 360 in my opinion. The one I swapped in my 78 CJ5 was awesome.

Love your suspension choice. Trim and stay low. My CJ5 was a bit bulky in the middle though with a 1 in Transfer Case drop and the stock skid. Your gonna want to research this.

Good luck and keep us updated on your plan.

The only main reason I haven't thought of a 7 is the SMOG requirements here in CA. I suppose I "could" build a 1974 CJ(5)7 76 is the first year of SMOG (75 and earlier are exempt) which means i'd have to be inspected etc.

I would love the idea of more room! both for drive train and passengers / supplies. And the stability of a longer wheelbase for on road. I do love the shortness of the 5 off road (though not much more than 7, I've loved just how small the 5 is)

I'm definitely thinking the 30 is weak link! Wouldn't mind sinking money into a front 44 for it instead of ARB in the 30 and upgrade everything just to still be breaking stuff.

Engine still undecided, though like the idea of an older Carb engine still for simplicity. 360 would be a nice upgrade allowing a few extra tweeks for low end torque I assume.

I have the double cardian drive shaft for rear already, and have clocked the pinion up to match it. Would like to shy away from Transfer Case drop for obvious reasons of clearance, but also makes my side pipe headers look funny! lol

you asked for opinions soooo.


I would build a frame, I would have a great time building a frame and being in control of shock mounts and roll bar mounts. I also think that a 1/8" or maybe 3/16" wall rectangular tube would be a lot more serviceable than anything made from formed steel. A little more weight, would be interesting to crunch the numbers and see about how much, and many care free days of beating it against the rocks. Big job, lots of money, major engineering/design problems (read opportunities). And as a bonus you get to justify new toys if you do not own the fabrication equipment.

If I had the Rubicon trail in my back yard? my Transmission weapon of choice would be a wide ratio Ford T-18 with adapter to a Dana 300 TC. As far as cost efficiency I think that the Ford wide ratio is plentiful enough and cheep enough that the whole package could be put together for about a Grand and you would never have to look back. I believe that this package, even with the adapter, will be your shortest option and give the most bang for your buck. This package would also allow a decent ride on asphalt as well.

I like this IO! I'm thinking exactly as you are on the frame build! We have most of the tools and equipment for fab, though would have to make some more. I like the Ford T-18 wide ratio and Dana 300 combo, and have been leaning that way. IF i wanted a lower ratio again, I could get the Dana 300 terra low and go from around 81:1 with stock 3:1 Dana 300 to 108 with 4:1 Tera low Dana 300 ... 81 would already be night and day differences from my measly 26:1 now! But ill bet the lowness of 108:1 would be ridiculously better!

Well IMO by the time you buy and rebuild a Dana 300 , than add a 4:1 kit you might as well throw another few hundred at it and get an Atlas.
I'd also get some wider axles for a little more stability. A set of 44's would be enough for 33's or 35's. If you do just keep the 30, at least get some after market axles for it with the bigger 5-760 u-joints. (ask me how I know)
You really need lockers for playing in the rocks.
Also and it might just be me, but I would do a TF999 . You just can't beat an auto in the rocks. But it might be kinda long in a 5.

Old dog, I hadn't looked too much into the Atlas! Those are some dang fine T-cases! And you can drop down to 5:1 in the tcase alone... (though not madatory...) I'm going to have to look into these bad boys a little more! Anyone have any experience / pros / cons of these?

I like the upgrade options of the 30 you list! I imagine I know how you know! Wondering if upgrading it and throwing a locker in it will be worth it, or if I should just start with a 44?

You're definitely right! The auto would be a lot nicer in the rocks! I'm a stick shift guy though... No real reason, but it "feels" better for me... Not off the table, but I'm pretty positive I'll stay stick.

All Keep em coming, and please feel free to keep posting as we go along!


~ Jr

 

[tarry99]

Hey guys!

So I'm thinking next fall / winter may be able to begin doing a full re-build. I want to list my basic desires, and plans, and would like any and all feedback from everyone with opinions and some knowledge!


So from the start, here's a basic list:

• Road and Trail: I do not want to have to tow the old girl to the trails.
• Frame: I'd like to not have my frame crack "every time" I'm out. I am envisioning either a build as I've seen on this site from steel tubing and realize what is involved to achieve a usable frame. This would allow for full custom set up, and cheaper than the aftermarket options. My frame has been "fixed" too much, and just reinforcement and boxing is probably not the best option. A new frame of some sort is (I assume) needed.
• Suspension: I would like to remain a low center of gravity, and high under clearance. My plan is Maximum of 35" tires, though I may stick with my 33's for a while, want the option and set up "ready" for 35's. I am not against trimming the body for clearances. I want mainly a suspension lift (leaf springs if staying with spring style suspension) and am envisioning the Old Man Emu "YJ" 2.5" wide and 3.5" Spring under as seen here. I want to keep shackle and body lifts to minimum if any. Max 1" on either. After which I realize tie rod flip and other modifications for steering and driveshaft geometry would be necessary.
• Roll bar/cage: I'm going to keep my existing roll cage, but revise attachment to the frame instead of just the body. I've seen some nice mounts online like this I believe I can duplicate . May extend the cage towards the rear with modification at some point.
• Drive-train: I'm torn. I want a lower crawl ratio. I currently have a T-15 / Dana 20 / 4.27 in diffs. This brings me around 26:1 :down: I manage with this, but would rather be in the 50-60:1 area. Again since I want road drivable too, I can not simply up the gearing too much in diffs. This leads me to either the T-18 or SM420 / SM465. So From the engine to the Transfer Case , I am undecided. I would like to possibly either FI a AMC V8 (360 / 401 or even keep AMC 304 ) and find T-18 for jeep or convert a ford T-18 in. Maybe then do the tera low kit for Dana 20 ? Or would a Dana 300 swap be feasible / better with that tranny anyway? I would like to minimize adapters for obvious lenght restrictions in a CJ5 , and also the costs of those little bad boys!
• Diffs: I have had (so far) no troubles with my Dana 30 front and Dana 44 Rear. I have chrome mollys in the rear with factory "trac-Lok" and open front. I'm thinking of keeping these diffs and possibly throwing disc brake kits at them, or adapting a Dana 44 for the front. I know there are stronger units out there, but will I actually need them? Ford 9" etc?

All the other stuff, cosmetics and seat / dash builds and wiring, I have a pretty solid plan for from ideas around here...

But would love the input, suggestions, criticism, etc from everyone. I have a year to plan this (if I stay on schedule) and want to do it right. I know ultimately its my choice, but want the input!

Nothing barred or unwanted here! All input requested!

Financially, I'm alright. Not a "rich guy" by any means, but it shouldn't be an obstacle. However, I enjoy doing thins just as good for less $.

Cheers!
~ Jr

JR, Wow old buddy who lit the fire under you today?

I'm impressed............
But really the first question is: "Where do you Start & Stop"?

Frame: If you have the room , desire,talent & equipment by all means have at it. If I was building a frame it would be coils & not leafs. If you stay with leafs the wide trac axles like the narrow tracks are both on 28" spring centers.......3 inches wider over all compared to what you have. Of course longer tie rods & drag link and probably a gear change front and rear.
Can you fix your old frame? Anything can be fixed.
Suspension: I like the wider / longer WJ springs.........but don't think your going to get enough lift for 35's without at least a 4" + lift?
Roll Bar: I have looked at that bracket before but the bracket and the body mounts are not moving in the same moment.....this equals stress & cracks. Its better to have a solid mount off your frame and use the same High Energy Puck mount between the cage, tub, and frame mount.........everything is now moving together and if your concerned about the puck compressing the max is 30% of value and still have a memory!
Drive Train: 60-70:1 is huge do you need 100:1 not unless your running the Hammers! With a Ford T-18 @6:32 with a Dana 20 @ 2.03 & 4.27=55:1
If you want more the Dana 20 case you have should be a 4" bore case and the tera-low will go right in with minimal work and take it to 108:1...........In my 65 I have a large bore Dana 20 converted back to off set drive using the D-18 gear set @ 2.46:1 and use the offset rear axle...... Why? cause I have a 25% Warn Overdrive in the blank accessory hole on top and I can change every forward or reverse gear by 25%......You could do the same by doing an offset rear end and using the T-18 gears would take your package to 66:1 with the 6:32 low gear..............just a thought!
Diffs: The Dana 30 will be fine if it remains open or you stick a posi up there with some aftermarket axles and large U-joints. Lock it with 35's and I think its toast!.
Dana 44 front? Nice but it all needs to be cut to size as there is nothing close to matching what you have...........current narrow track is 53" Wide is 56" and the closets Dana 44 if you could find one out of a Scout is 58".
Disc brakes should be able to be found in some of the Junk yards........1977-1978 CJ Big Disc front brakes , get the mounts & hubs and Calipers for the core charge.........buy new rotors and exchange your calipers for rebuilt ones.......and your good to go.

So back to my first question: Where do you "Start & Stop"?

 

[Old Dog]

There is a few things you can do to the 30 to help.
You can get 30 spline axles (same as a 44) if you get the locker to go with it. They will also have the larger u-joints. This will solve most of the problems.
I'm running the old Alloy USA 27 spline (stock size) axles which have the 5-760 joints and have had no problems. (I'd stay away from Alloy USA now though.)
I've also seen people bent the tubes, but you can sleeve them to solve that. I've never seen anyone break a ring and pinion yet, but I'm sure it's been done.
Just to compare, I'm building a 44 now with all new parts except the housing, which is getting narrowed on one side. After buying new hubs and rotors to conver it to a 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern, all new bearings, seals and steering parts, a new E-locker, and custom Moser axles I'm looking at app. $3000 Of course I'm doing the labor for free.

 

[CJ007]

Hey there Jr.

I would suggest keeping an eye open for parts starting now. The more time you have allows you to wait for the right deal or see things that are not selling that keep getting reposted on CL.

If you go with the the Ford T-18 to the Dana 300 use the Novak adapter. It has the clocking ring built in and that will help you tuck everything up for your low COG.

As for the tires. I am on 35's and cut out, have tube fenders that open it up, am SOA and still rub in places. There should be room to trim up and back as needed. But forward will be the rubbing problem. Especially if sitting low on the tire. I would look at how much room you have toward the front to trim and make sure that works or consider moving the axle back.

The front rubbing is also a problem as the tires do not have enough room when they are pushed back (or turned sharp and pushed up), even with tube fenders. IMO, it would make sense to at least move your front axle forward on a 5 that will be wheeled. It helps your approach and you gain the wheel base for the bigger climbs.

These older Jeeps take more work to get a low COG, that's why so many end up really cut or tubed. They're not designed like a JK with a large opening and plastic shroud than can be cut to tuck 35's under. But, with thinking it through like you are doing, you can make one bad *** CJ.

Anyway there is my .02 with some assumptions . I hope this helps, good luck man!

 

[billyocup]

JR - missed this when you first posted it. Like tarry99 asked "Who lit the fire under you?"

Sounds like an ambitious and fun project if you've got the time and $$$. There was an article in JP magazine last year about building a frame from scratch for a CJ with drawings and dimensions. Thought it was pretty informative, you might check it out. I like tarry99's comment about coils, I think it will give you alot more articulation, if that's what you're looking for.

So good luck! I'm looking forward to watching your build Bill

 

[JR74CJ5]

Thanks all!

One thing I'd like to discuss with you all further. Coils vs springs.

What are the pros and cons of them both? Remember I'd like it street and off road capable.

I need to do some further research on coils to fully understand all that is required and the basic design of them. So I am ignorant at this time on why they are better etc. So after the research I can join the conversation a little further...

But in the mean-time feel free to post away opinions on either!

Tarry and Bill, yes fire is lit! I really want to jump in my jeep and know it's going to make it where I want to go and back without (foreseeable) problems. I know you can always break a axle or blow a tire... But I want my frame not to crack somewhere every time (almost not and exaggeration) I go out. I want my full turning radius back, I want my new tires to not rub all the time on inner fenders and springs, I want lower gearing to crawl with less effort. I want my lady to feel comfortable in me saying "I'm going wheeling" and know its not going to be a new $500.00 part to get every time i go...

And I just want it to be what I want it to be... a bad 74 CJ5 :drool:



~ Jr

 

[CJim7]

Although I love my T-18 , an auto isn't a bad idea (per Old Dog). A 999 might be a bit long...but a 727 would work perfectly. Its extremelly short and will easily hold up to V8 power.

 

[Petescj]

Put the auto Transmission in a gear calculator and see what you get. Thats why Im grabbing an auto for the wife and a T-18 for myself.

 

[Old Dog]

It's hard to come up with good crawl numbers for an auto, as the torque converter helps alot and just can't be figured in. But yea most auto's only have between a 2 to 3 :1 frist gear. I'll still keep mine though.

 

[JR74CJ5]

I've seen on novak calculations page the following:

"Note here that automatic transmissions offer the benefit of gearing built into the fluid drive torque converter. One can multiply an automatic Transmission 's low gear by a factor of 1.5 to 2. "

SO a auto with 3:1 low can actually plug a low gear from Transmission number into the equation of around 4.5:1 to 6:1 Making it closer to the T-18 than my 3 speed T-15 .

I also like automatics for the ability to put in gear and evenly climb easily over and obstacle. It's definitely the "right" set up for easy wheeling, not to mention is nice for on road driving too! You don't have to keep switching gears in traffic etc.

But even with all that said, most likely will still stay with manual clutch tranny...

 

[JR74CJ5]

Ok so been doing some budgeting and searching today...

I'm planning my drivetrain out...

I'd like to keep my AMC 304 (or 360).

So I'm planning: 340 - SM425 - ???

I have already a Dana 20 . If I buy the adapter (which I have to buy for wither a Dana 20 or Dana 300 ...) for the Dana 20 , I'll save the money on a Dana 300 , rebuild kit, and new rear output for my cv style driveshaft, twin stick conversion, (and probably more I'm forgetting) and my crawl ratio will still be much higher than it is now! (60:1 vs current 26:1) BUT I can buy a Dana 300 and the rest mentioned there, and bring my crawl ratio up to 90:1...

So I'm at a loss... Dana 20 I already have, or Dana 300 I'd need to find.

the extra 30:1 low crawl ratio is calling to me...

What do you guys think? I know some of this is repetitive... just trying to weigh out my options further i guess...

 

[tarry99]

Ok so been doing some budgeting and searching today...

I'm planning my drivetrain out...

I'd like to keep my AMC 304 (or 360).

So I'm planning: 340 - SM425 - ???

I have already a Dana 20 . If I buy the adapter (which I have to buy for wither a Dana 20 or Dana 300 ...) for the Dana 20 , I'll save the money on a Dana 300 , rebuild kit, and new rear output for my cv style driveshaft, twin stick conversion, (and probably more I'm forgetting) and my crawl ratio will still be much higher than it is now! (60:1 vs current 26:1) BUT I can buy a Dana 300 and the rest mentioned there, and bring my crawl ratio up to 90:1...

So I'm at a loss... Dana 20 I already have, or Dana 300 I'd need to find.

the extra 30:1 low crawl ratio is calling to me...

What do you guys think? I know some of this is repetitive... just trying to weigh out my options further i guess...

Hi JR,
Are you thinking SM-465? The Dana 20 versus the Dana 300 is a little shorter which will help the driveshaft angle.........but the 20 low gear is 2.0 versus the Dana 300 @ 2.62.........you can take the gears out of a Dana 18 and put them in a Dana 20 and get a 2.46 low gear. Most claim there is no difference in strength.......although the Dana 300 has Helically cut gears and is a little quieter in the low range......
Your Bell housing will need work done to it for the SM bolt pattern and the candlestick OD, I think also a different clutch fork...........you should call either Novak or Advanced Adaptors and pick there brain............

 

[Petescj]

I was looking on Novaks site since Im grabbing that SM465. Everything you need to know is right there.

 

[Old Dog]

60:1 or 90:1 sounds like a no brainer to me, Dana 300 all the way.