Moser 1-Piece Axle Install Headache!!

[WINDSHEAR II]

Hey guys,
A local shop has my '86 CJ and has reached a "pause" moment during the finish-up phase. The AMC20 (and rest of Jeep) is completely stock, but the Moser bearings set on left (driver's) side is overheating and failing immediately during trial runs. This is NOT, NOT NOT NOT a flame at Moser Engineering. They have been helpful as far as they could on this matter.
Back to point, the FIRST Wide Track axle install resulted in entire left axle/brake/tire assembly "walking" out about 12", this during a slow left turn onto a dirt driveway at work. I was driving at this time. Diagnosis was bearing overheated and failed. The AMC20 lost some gear oil during this separation, and brake pedal went to the floor without even hinting they wanted to stop!
SECOND bearing set purchased from Moser was installed. That bearing overheated to the point of no longer being usable, Jeep was driven by shop guy. Diagnosis was to check clearances again, and to inspect brake backing plates.
THIRD attempt, a new Moser Engineering axle kit was purchased for a new install. Yep, a complete new SECOND $310.99 axle kit. When the bearing once again became warm, Jeep was shut down while we try to remedy the problem. Moser Tech was brought in at this time.

When the axle separated that morning (1st install), I had just driven ~20 miles down the freeway, then a gentle sweeping right turn exit ramp, then a gentle right veer to roadway leading to job (1/2 mile). Slowed down 'cause brakes were still working, gentle turn LEFT and assembly all came out.
Somewhere around failed second bearing set, bent tubes were suspected. But they "passed" the inspection, so we moved on. I personally think that is our problem, but the Moser Tech is having us take out the carrier for an inspection of it. By the way, bearing clearance figures were in line with the Moser Tech.
At this point, 2 axle kits and a 3rd bearing purchase, we are:
1- Pulling the carrier for inspection,
2- Replacing the original brake backing plates,
3- Will reassemble with 3rd bearing set, at Moser clearance specs.
4- Hold my breath...

This is a stock geared AMC20 rear axle, with 204,000 showing on the odometer. I have owned this CJ for 2+ years, and it does at least 700 miles per month freeway driving. I don't have to explain WHY I drive it !!!
HELP!

 

[mfistler]

Have they recommended replacing the axle housing, maybe the heat and repeated failures damaged the race surface of the axle flange. This allowing the race to spin and the bearing not the spin thus creating friction which would explain the heat on the bearing.

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

Have they recommended replacing the axle housing, maybe the heat and repeated failures damaged the race surface of the axle flange. This allowing the race to spin and the bearing not the spin thus creating friction which would explain the heat on the bearing.

I "believe" that the shop is pulling the entire axle from the Jeep for the inspection. Might be able to do necessary work with it still in the vehicle, I'm not sure. I said "carrier" in the post, but I think we are talking about the same thing. Pumpkin, differential, same thing to me. It's getting a major look-see.
Many thanks!

 

[hole]

A friend of mine was having very similar issues with a shop that was doing the same thing. Not 100 % sure what and why, but the 3rd time was the charm. Our guess is the mechanic didnt understand how to set up the necessary tolerances correctly. They do understand that the bearing must be thoroughly greased before install, right?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Grease the bearing with your install.
Did the 'shop' do this?
http://www.moserengineering.com/moser/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/JeepInstructions.pdf

Was the OEM diff 'thrust block' removed.
LG

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

A friend of mine was having very similar issues with a shop that was doing the same thing. Not 100 % sure what and why, but the 3rd time was the charm. Our guess is the mechanic didnt understand how to set up the necessary tolerances correctly. They do understand that the bearing must be thoroughly greased before install, right?

Moser ships their Timken-9(?) bearings in poly bags, already filled with grease. Very high quality pieces too. Possible that the tolerances were not set correctly, but I doubt it. I'll still ask about them though, nothing is off the table at this time!
The mechanic doing the install is also a CJ owner x 2. A year ago, he sold my boss a "stretched" CJ5 with a 327ci Chevy. Did all the work on it himself. Doing a frame-off resto right now for his wife. VERY competent.

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

Grease the bearing with your install.
Did the 'shop' do this?
http://www.moserengineering.com/moser/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/JeepInstructions.pdf

Was the OEM diff 'thrust block' removed.
LG

LG! I was waiting for your input!
Honestly, I don't know if the OEM thrust block was removed or not. My purpose for coming to the forum was so I could gather ideas that my group was not "seeing". I did include a tube of bearing grease along with some Mobil 1 75w-90 gear oil when I dropped off the parts for FIRST install. I'm gonna trust him here that he did the right thing. I also gave him the paperwork that came with the kit (LG link).
Thinking back, I remember his telling me that the spider gears in my carrier were a little worn, but not enough to be concerned about. Does that go anywhere?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Can you post pictures of what the damaged axle looks like? Pictures of the splines would be nice also.
Do you have any history of axle issues on the side of the housing that you are now have'n trouble with?
LG

 

[mfistler]

If you could get a picture of the axle just after he presses on the bearing and also if you can get a picture of the inside of the outer axle tube in question.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

LG

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

Can you post pictures of what the damaged axle looks like? Pictures of the splines would be nice also.
Do you have any history of axle issues on the side of the housing that you are now have'n trouble with?
LG

I'm assuming that you want photos of the Moser axle that released and slid out, and not of the OEM 2-piece axles. I can probably do that tomorrow.
What led me to an axle swap out in the first place was that I was hearing the dreaded wup wup wup after installing a new set of Goodyear Wrangler AT's. My thinking was that a rear wheel bearing was going bad, sounded to me to be coming from the right rear. 1-piece axle upgrade just made sense to me.

Tomorrow or Tuesday I'll get photos of the axles and splines. Many thanks guys!!

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Yes-The 1 piece. SORRY I wasn't clear on that
Was there any visible signs of damage to the OEM 2 piece axles?
What does your installer think the issue could be with the Moser?
LG

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

Yes-The 1 piece. SORRY I wasn't clear on that
Was there any visible signs of damage to the OEM 2 piece axles?
What does your installer think the issue could be with the Moser?
LG

My guess is that the tube(s) will be the issue.
The shop guy guessed that at some time maybe the tubes were tweaked, but that the OEM pieces just "wore" themselves in at that time. We did check the tubes after 2nd bearing set heated up (and by "we" I mean "he"!), but that inspection did not reveal anything to me. Going back over everything now. Just TX'd him about possible backing plate reversal, but almost sure the Moser Tech mentioned that also.
There was nothing about the OEM axles that looked out of the norm. Just the spider gears were a little worn, as mentioned before.

MOSER ENGINEERING is NOT the cause of my problem, I was/am very happy with the quality of their axle kits. I would buy from them again...and may have to!!

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

Guys,
One more thing about this Jeep. It was a CA vehicle and had about 190K on the odometer when I bought it. But it was a "tow" vehicle so who knows how many of the miles were behind someone's motorhome? It ran great for me right out of the gate.
I don't know HOW it was towed, of course. But it makes sense that the axle tubes could have been tweaked and the PO didn't know...

 

[Lumpy Grits]

I've tow'd mine all over the western USA.
It should not be a concern.
LG

 

[Hedgehog]

I'm sorry to say this, especially after you've spent so much money already. I'd be looking for a used wide track Dana 44 to replace your AMC20 rear end. Dana 44 's are easy to retrofit, are stronger and will last. Of course the other option would be to go with a cut down ford rear end. You won't break that. I do see that you are running T-5 's in both the "blown" and stock CJ's, you can't be to hard on your jeep if you are keeping them happy and healthy.

One way or the other you are putting excessive side stress on your bearings. That would be an alignment issue ..... Then again you could have excessive preload on the bearings causing to essentially run dry. Since you aren't doing the work yourself it isn't easy to advise you on exactly what to do AND your mechanic might not appreciate your "internet cowboy" advice. That's one nice thing about doing your own mechanical work, you know you can make mistakes and you get to know who to listen to for advice.

 

[WINDSHEAR II]

I'm sorry to say this, especially after you've spent so much money already. I'd be looking for a used wide track Dana 44 to replace your AMC20 rear end. Dana 44 's are easy to retrofit, are stronger and will last. Of course the other option would be to go with a cut down ford rear end. You won't break that. I do see that you are running T-5 's in both the "blown" and stock CJ's, you can't be to hard on your jeep if you are keeping them happy and healthy.

One way or the other you are putting excessive side stress on your bearings. That would be an alignment issue ..... Then again you could have excessive preload on the bearings causing to essentially run dry. Since you aren't doing the work yourself it isn't easy to advise you on exactly what to do AND your mechanic might not appreciate your "internet cowboy" advice. That's one nice thing about doing your own mechanical work, you know you can make mistakes and you get to know who to listen to for advice.

I've come so far with the Moser pieces that I can't just chuck them, then start over and install another axle! I'm confident that we will solve the problem. You guys have already pointed out some potential answers, I feel it's only a matter of time. For what its worth, I am doing some of the work on my rigs, but my knowledge and wrenching abilities lie under the hood. And my shop guy does not have too much ego that he can't be told anything. He's good, but so are you guys. If I ever need a kidney transplant, I'm gonna get Lumpy to do it!
You mentioned that there's a possible "alignment" issue that is probably putting some amount of side stress on the bearings. Are we talking "wheel alignment" here, or something else? A 4-wheel alignment was performed when the new Wranglers were installed (Sears). Let me know if I read you wrong. Oh yeah, you're right about me not doing off road.
And lastly, my not-running '86 with factory Dana axles front and rear, well, the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l was blown up by a FAMILY MEMBER who had it for about 6 weeks. STILL don't know the whole story on that one, STILL pissed off about it too.

Stephen

 

[mfistler]

I would start searching for a used M20. Rear housing. You might get lucky and have someone give it to you to get it out of their yard.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

When "I" speak to folks about 'alignment' in this text. It refers to the straightness of the axle housing, and nut'n else.
I would like to see a picture of the axle housing(problem side)where the bearing's race sits.
LG

P.S. About the closest I'll ever be to a surgeon, is when I'm 'dressing' out game.

 

[Hedgehog]

Same as Lumpy wrote, not wheel alignment, axle tube or at least bearing alignment. Good point from mfistler, You could short circuit all this with a AMC20 axle someone upgraded away from. I bet you could get one fairly inexpensively or even free to remove it from the yard. Then rebuild it using your parts. There simply HAS to be something wrong with your axle or the install itself, which I doubt.