Motor timing 180* out?

[Turbogus]

Hi gang,
After struggling with a no start issue this summer and finding a sunken float in the carb. it seems I have larger issues. Without disturbing the distributor (I don't care for the term 'dizzy') it seems the Inital Timing is about 180* out. (A lift of the lynch lid to Jeep Hammer for suggesting this) After detirmining this I pulled the distributor and checking the distributor gear it looked almost new.
In the past I've had a '69 Pontiac LeMans that fell out of time and it was the 'silent runner' plastic timing gear that had stripped and was evident by the erratic revolving of the distributor rotor. Since AMC uses steel gears and chain how could the IT slip to this degree? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[Torxhead]

Gus, I am not really sure that AMC used the steel gear in that engine. If it been awhile since the last timing chain replacement I would suggest tearing into it. Especially if the last time you had a timing light on it the timing mark was bouncing around. When I replaced my timing chain on the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l , it was nylon. I would say that those nylon gears last about 50k anyway.

 

[jdcaples]

My AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l used and stripped a brass(?) gear at the base of the distributor.

I can't remember what I replaced it with; but knowing me I'd bet there was some iron in the new part.

-Jon

 

[Torxhead]

My AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l used and stripped a brass(?) gear at the base of the distributor.

I can't remember what I replaced it with; but knowing me I'd bet there was some iron in the new part.

-Jon

From my experience, brass distributor gears were used for steel billet racing cams. I made short work out of one also.

 

[Turbogus]

Thanks for the responses guys. This is part of a no start fault so using a timing light is impossible at this time. What I'm deling with in this instance is Initail Timing.

 

[Torxhead]

Actually Gus, you could get it close enough for a start by adjusting the distributor as the starter motor turns over the crank while holding a timing light on it. Also putting the vibration timing mark at the #1 position and the distributor rotor close to the #1 firing location. But if this issue began in the garage and not on the road, the timing gear/chain should not be affected. I have skipped a couple of teeth while driving, but really had to put my foot into it. but do you even have a good spark?

 

[Hedgehog]

Am I missing something here? This seems fairly easy. If you are truly 180* out. To find a starting point,.... take the cap off the distributor, note where the rotor is pointing,.... gently remove the retaining bolt, without turning the dist. lift it straight up to disengage the gear it will turn some,.... turn the Rotor/gear ~180* and reset/engage the gear as close as possible,...... the rotor should be ~180* or 1/2 a turn from the starting position. If the dist. was 180* out this will get it close enough to start the motor. If you are nervous of that, turn the crank until the #1 piston pushes air out, The timing marks should be close to lining up, make sure the #1 spark plug wire post is under or near where the rotor is pointing. Fire it up and set the timing, you can almost do it by ear.........

If the timing was 180* out you would have gotten fire back through the carb.

 

[Turbogus]

I can dig that Hedgehog, I'm just a zombie after my 12 hour working day. As if I didn't have enoungh to contend with it looks like the starter went tits up too. My best friend (just out of back surgery) has been helping me with this latter process. We recorrected the distributor position as we had moved the oil pump shaft slightly. The starter was a pecker to remove what with the header and bulkhead right in the way of the upper bolt. My buddy's taking it to the parts shop today for testing/replacement, but the way it looks this morning I'm too tired and sore (torn left bicep) to have at it again tonight.

 

[PaRenegade]

If the timing was 180* out you would have gotten fire back through the carb.

I don't mean to hi-jack here Turbo, but I'm having the same issue right now on my initial start-up.

I am getting a "backfire" thru the carb, and actually blowing off one of my loose fitting vacuum hoses, manifold vac. I made my first attempt at starting my engine after my almost 4 year rebuild.
However, when I assembled the engine after a new timing chain and sprockets, I left it where the marks/dots on the sprockets lined up. This is also where the timing mark on the balancer was at zero and the front piston was at the top of the bore. When I inserted the dizzy the rotor was pointing at or close to plug wire #1. So that said I assume it's not out of time 180 degrees. Am I missing something? Can you offer some guidance for me?Could the dizzy just need rotated cw slightly?

 

[Turbogus]

PaRenegade, no harm in your post. I'm used to backfires through the carburator as being a lean condition, but it seems timing plays a role as well. I'm no expert though.

My friend took the starter to the parts shop for testing for me, on the bench it was growling, seemed to have a bent shaft and was doing 40 amps - the clerk said between 30-120 is okay, but he got me a new lifetime one anyway

 

[Hedgehog]

I don't mean to hi-jack here Turbo, but I'm having the same issue right now on my initial start-up.

I am getting a "backfire" thru the carb, and actually blowing off one of my loose fitting vacuum hoses, manifold vac. I made my first attempt at starting my engine after my almost 4 year rebuild.
However, when I assembled the engine after a new timing chain and sprockets, I left it where the marks/dots on the sprockets lined up. This is also where the timing mark on the balancer was at zero and the front piston was at the top of the bore. When I inserted the dizzy the rotor was pointing at or close to plug wire #1. So that said I assume it's not out of time 180 degrees. Am I missing something? Can you offer some guidance for me?Could the dizzy just need rotated cw slightly?

Your engine will be in the seemingly perfect spot twice, once when the valves are closed and ready to fire and once where the exhaust valve is open for purging exhaust. This is an easy mistake and you see it on the car building shows all the time. I mentioned one way to reset your dist. the other is to turn the engine over by hand until the timing mark is lined up again. Then reset up your distributor. If you/we are wrong in the dist. being 180* out no harm done, just reset back the way it was. Here's an odd thing. some engines will run, run horribly, but they will run with the dist. 180* out. Exactly how I don't know, but it's been talked about right here on this site.

 

[PaRenegade]

Yep, turns out that when the timing dots are lined up that is on the exhaust stroke. I rotated the dizzy 180, plus I had to move it 2 teeth beyond to give me more adjustability, and it now runs pretty smooth. Now to tune things.

 

[Hedgehog]

Yep, turns out that when the timing dots are lined up that is on the exhaust stroke. I rotated the dizzy 180, plus I had to move it 2 teeth beyond to give me more adjustability, and it now runs pretty smooth. Now to tune things.

.... exactly! Mine was ever so close but the Power steering pump made it a "no-go" situation. I think I jumped a tooth, but it might have been two, can't remember right now. But ... mriplaybase had a great solution, get a slightly longer belt for the PS Pump. Since I chose to keep the air pump I don't thing my air pump would have cleared the fender.

 

[Turbogus]

Got the starter in, went in easier that comin' out. It's spinning up fine, may do some more work tonight.

 

[Hedgehog]

Not that you are in this situation. Sometimes it amazes me to see what lengths folks will go to with parts like starters. Every possible diagnostic is attempted before giving in and replacing the starter. Starters give out, sometimes very suddenly. I'm a big believer in, if it smells like a rat, looks like a rat and has a long rat tail, it's a rat. You are right, sometimes it takes a whole lot longer to remove a part the first time than it takes to replace it.

 

[Turbogus]

Pulled the primary starter last night and taking it back to NAPA for load testing today...

 

[Turbogus]

After removing the newly charged primary battery and taking it to NAPA for testing the results were 600 out of 800 CCA. They said they'd put it on their charger this morning and re-test it.

 

[Turbogus]

Well I stopped by NAPA on my way home last night they said they wanted to keep the battery for another day and re test it again, kind of odd that.

 

[Hedgehog]

Hate to say this, I like NAPA very much, it feels like they are jerking you around. I bet someone didn't hook the battery up to the charger for testing ..... this whole procedure seems odd in itself.

 

[Torxhead]

I keep one of these around the house:Battery Load Tester | eBay.
That, along with a battery charger, allows me to keep an eye on the battery performance so that I can tell when it is going bad. It gets used mostly on daily drivers.