The debate is over, I win!

[rushpowersystems]

Fine CJ it’s in a new post. Old post here.

“Will a 12 volt winch running at 16 volts pull harder? Probably until you burn out the moter running it at 16 volts.”

That was my point higher voltage is more efficient. As many here will recall the old “M” series (military) Jeep trucks ran 24 volts and there is a whole bunch of them running on stock wiring today. They last much longer because 24 volts is less stress full on the electrical and it produces less overall heat. Why don’t we run 24 volts? Because the industry is standardized around 12 volt. Car audio is a multi-billion dollar industry, customers want the equipment they sale. Its not as good but we are stuck with it for now.

Since 1985 Rush Power Systems has built high amp alternators for high end stereo use. Since then every car we have sponsored has never finished less than 3rd place, I am talking thousands of competitions. We always run 16-18 volts depending on the amplifier. If the vehicle is computer controlled we isolate the system. Amplifiers love voltage! .! The reason car makers run 14-14.5 volts is MPG, higher voltage will require more power to turn the alternator. I run my XJ at 16 and my CJ at 15-16 with an adjustable regulator. 16.5 is the max ECU can handle, most batteries will boil at 17 volts. So yes there is a top end and I have stated that from the start, but the fact is more voltage will give better results.

From my experience you will not be able to tell any difference in a alternator, battery, starter, winch, or bulb that is designed for 12 volt and you run it a 16 volts. In fact old Ford vehicles were factory set at 16 volts, guess you better let Ford know they were wrong!

 

[CJ]

I love a good debate!

Keep it civil folks!

 

[John Strenk]

I do too lets Review.

I never argued with Higher Voltages are more efficient. Heck look at the electric Transmission in the world.

I think the debate started with a statement that dash light running at 13 volts runs hotter than a dash light running at 16 volts because lower voltage increase current.

Do you wish to change that now and admit I'm right?

....

We have never rebuilt a Jeep gauge without seeing the melted internals around the indicators lights, the fact is lower voltage results in higher amperage, that creates heat. Higher voltage improves everything to a point, 12 volt batteries cant handle anything over 17 volts. Car makers shot for around 14 volts because the higher the voltage the more HP required to turn the alternator the less MPG.
.....

 

[BrockGrimes]

I can tell you one of my old alt's started running 16v read via a volt meter and in toubleshooting I can tell you the freaking dash lights get damn hot, still have the mark to prove it.
(One of the bulbs was hanging down when I stuck my arm up in there)

 

[John Strenk]

Here is my little experiment proving higher voltage into a device will increase the current causing it to heat up more.

Enjoy

YouTube - DSCF0538


This holds true for any other device you try to operate at a higher voltage unless it is specifically designed to operate at higher voltage.

 

[BajaEdition]

Nice experiment, I will offer a coulomb of support for it.

 

[BajaEdition]

I can tell you one of my old alt's started running 16v read via a volt meter and in toubleshooting I can tell you the freaking dash lights get damn hot, still have the mark to prove it.
(One of the bulbs was hanging down when I stuck my arm up in there)

I have a bulb like that on my 70, it keeps falling out of the speedo cluster and burning my fingers as I try to reach under an put it back in:driving:

 

[BusaDave9]

Electrical components are made to work at a specific voltage.
A light bulb made for 12 volts will have much lower resistance than a light bulb made for a 24 volt system.
Lets say you have a vehicle that has a 12 volt electrical system and the head light burns out. If you replace it with a head light made for a 24 volt vehicle then it will be very dim.
On the other hand if you put a head light made for a 12volt jeep into a 24 volt jeep the light will be very bright. The bulb will also be very hot to the touch. And about a week later it will burn out.

Here are the mathematical equations:
P = E2 / R or power equals voltage squared divided by resistance
50watt=12volts/2.88 Ohms so a 50 watt headlight on a 12 volt system has 2.88 ohms of resistance.
50watt=24volts/11.52 ohms so a 50 watt headlight on a 24 volt system has 11.52 ohms of resistance.
Watts is a rating of power. A headlight puts out that power both in the form of light and heat. The reason florescent lights are more efficient that incandescent bulbs is the florecent lights produce less heat. But now I am getting off topic.
As long as the electrical components are made for the voltage of the system the 24 volt vehicle will not be more efficient than the 12 volt system.

A dash light running at 13 volts will be cooler than if the same light was running at 16 volts.

 

[Cheepjeep85]

john strenk everybody

 

[BajaEdition]

befor it is over we will have the entire wheel here, so lets just put it on the table

I think an easy way to say this in laymans terms is Volts equal force, electromotive force, so more force means more pressure
ohms is resistance, lets just say preasure to inhibit flow
amps is a measurement of volume
and watts is total power used
and this wheel is how they all interact with each other
it is actually very easy to understand and once you do you can see how changing one variable will change everything
as on most questions about a low volt system such as those in a CJ, you are dealing with a lot of problems created by a phenom called voltage drop, which is caused by the fact that the lower the voltage(force) the faster resistance (back pressure) starts to affect it.
(I am trying to put this as simply as possible without throwing out words like farads,coulombs, and such which would make it so simple only to those who have studied it)
we measure total power as the amount of electrons that have moved passed one point in a given amount of time, how we arrive at that number is what is important here. Upping the voltage means we can push more amps and arrive with more resistance (light) but also the resistance of the circuit turned to heat in the wires will cause a failure(burn out a circuit) as something in it will not be rated for the load and act as an fuse.

was taht easy enough? or should I just forget trying to explain?

 

[Cheepjeep85]

befor it is over we will have the entire wheel here, so lets just put it on the table

whoa i didn't do worth a in math

 

[rushpowersystems]

O.K. I have been sitting back and enjoying this but its time to confess, I have a twisted sense of humor, do you realize that all day long I sat in my nice warm office pushing you buttons until I finally made you go to your clearly cold garage and video a test, then post it? Took a few days for you to bit the hook but I was confident you would, but then again it was a slow day I thought someone would bite today. My favorite part is when the peanut gallery (you know who you are) comes out of the woodwork to jump in.

But seriously, at 16 volts at the alternator, with the resistance in the system the bulb will see 14.5 to 15.5 volts, that is not going to melt anything, unless you want to do an experiment on that one ace. And it is not going to hurt anything running the items I mentioned, when we do conversion from 6 volt to 12 volt we change the battery, alternator, and gauges and that is it, never a problem.

Now about the Fram filters, all filters are built by the same company and there is not a thing wrong with them.

 

[John Strenk]

Electrical components are made to work at a specific voltage.
A light bulb made for 12 volts will have much lower resistance than a light bulb made for a 24 volt system.
Lets say you have a vehicle that has a 12 volt electrical system and the head light burns out. If you replace it with a head light made for a 24 volt vehicle then it will be very dim.
On the other hand if you put a head light made for a 12volt jeep into a 24 volt jeep the light will be very bright. The bulb will also be very hot to the touch. And about a week later it will burn out.

Here are the mathematical equations:
P = E2 / R or power equals voltage squared divided by resistance
50watt=12volts/0.24 Ohms so a 50 watt headlight on a 12 volt system has 0.25 ohms of resistance.
50watt=24volts/20 ohms so a 50 watt headlight on a 24 volt system has 20 ohms of resistance.
Watts is a rating of power. A headlight puts out that power both in the form of light and heat. The reason florescent lights are more efficient that incandescent bulbs is the florecent lights produce less heat. But now I am getting off topic.
As long as the electrical components are made for the voltage of the system the 24 volt vehicle will not be more efficient than the 12 volt system.

A dash light running at 13 volts will be cooler than if the same light was running at 16 volts.

Thank you, you are quite correct,

Grab a beer and review this post:
http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f7/best-alternator-plow-3215/index3.html

CJ is right, it was not the place to start a discussion.

Maybe you can help me here though.

 

[BajaEdition]

I have a twisted sense of humor, do you realize that all day long I sat in my nice warm office pushing you buttons until I finally made you go to your clearly cold garage and video a test,

Now about the Fram filters, all filters are built by the same company and there is not a thing wrong with them.

I actually was taking a nap all afternoon as he was doing the experiment. enjoyed it to was interested in how this has evolved though, niv=ce discussion, oh, and doesn't Fram use Chinese sub contractors now?

 

[rushpowersystems]

I actually was taking a nap all afternoon as he was doing the experiment. enjoyed it to was interested in how this has evolved though, niv=ce discussion, oh, and doesn't Fram use Chinese sub contractors now?

No they are union members. That will set it off!

 

[BrockGrimes]

O.K. I have been sitting back and enjoying this but its time to confess, I have a twisted sense of humor, do you realize that all day long I sat in my nice warm office pushing you buttons until I finally made you go to your clearly cold garage and video a test, then post it? Took a few days for you to bit the hook but I was confident you would, but then again it was a slow day I thought someone would bite today. My favorite part is when the peanut gallery (you know who you are) comes out of the woodwork to jump in.

Sounds like a Good excuse to me.

 

[CJ]

~~~CJ is right, it was not the place to start a discussion. ~~~

That was in the old OP's thread - I would love to see this one played out as it's beyond my level!

Just keep personal feelings out of the post and stick to factual arguments...

 

[BajaEdition]

No they are union members. That will set it off!

uh oh, now we are going start a discussion that will get us all banned.

 

[BajaEdition]

<getting his good union made bow and arrow out and looking for an ambush>

 

[John Strenk]

O.K. I have been sitting back and enjoying this but its time to confess, I have a twisted sense of humor, do you realize that all day long I sat in my nice warm office pushing you buttons until I finally made you go to your clearly cold garage and video a test, then post it? Took a few days for you to bit the hook but I was confident you would, but then again it was a slow day I thought someone would bite today. My favorite part is when the peanut gallery (you know who you are) comes out of the woodwork to jump in.

It was cold but had to get the old CJ ready for plowing tonight. Quite a blizzard building up and I have to go out and start plowing in a couple of hours anyway.

But seriously, at 16 volts at the alternator, with the resistance in the system the bulb will see 14.5 to 15.5 volts, that is not going to melt anything, unless you want to do an experiment on that one ace. And it is not going to hurt anything running the items I mentioned, when we do conversion from 6 volt to 12 volt we change the battery, alternator, and gauges and that is it, never a problem.

No argument there. That's why I'm converting my lighting over to relays and updated Light harness. I'm lucky to get 12 volts at the headlights when the alt is putting out 14.8

Now about the Fram filters, all filters are built by the same company and there is not a thing wrong with them.

This sounds like your baiting someone.