Turn signal problem

[dtrojcak]

I recently acquired a "new to me" 1978 CJ7 .
It needs a little work to pass inspection and be street legal.
All of the lights, with the exception of white reverse, work fine.
Headlights, both high/low beam, brake lights, and side markers all work.
The problem is I have no blinkers. Turn signals and 4way hazards do not blink.
I've replaced the flasher that plugs into the fuse box with no change.
I've purchased a new turn signal switch, but I can't figure out how to remove the old one from the column yet.
I did hook up the new one, but the blinkers still don't blink. I'm not sure if it has to actually be inside the column for grounding purposes or not though.

I did put a test light and a DVM on the harness.
The horn wire is constant 12volts.
The brake wire is 12volts when the brake is depressed.
None of the blinker wires get voltage at any time, no matter what position the blinker switch is in, including turning the hazards on.

I need advice on what/where I need to check next to figure out why my blinkers don't blink.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Torxhead]

I am pretty sure that the '78 does have fuses for the turn signals and emergency flashers, so make sure those are good. The turn signal switch can get to be quite dirty, so that can cause a problem or it could be just worn out. The red wire with tracer on the steering column connector does provide power in and the grounds are at the lights.

 

[dtrojcak]

OK, I did a little more research.
Using this picture, I was able to determine a few more problems.
View attachment 17360
I have 12 volts on the Hazzard Flasher and Horn wires, but not on the Turn Flasher. I'll need to figure out why the Turn Flasher has no voltage. I'm hoping it's just a fuse. There's one blown and one missing.

As stated before, all lights except reverse, work, but nothing blinks.

I unhooked the turn signal switch and checked for continuity at the plug between the various wires when the switch is in various positions. Everything seems to work correctly.
Turn signal wire shorts to left rear and left front when switched to left.
Turn signal wire shorts to right rear and right rear when switched to right.
Hazzard flasher wire shorts to all four corners.
Brake switch shorts to right and left rear.

The thing I find odd is I have 12 volts at the hazzard flasher wire, but when I activate the hazzard switch, the voltage drops to 0.

I'm thinking my next step will be to remove the dash panel and start tracing wires to see what the problem may be. I'm guessing I have either a cut or shorted wire, or a combination of both.

Is there something else I should look at before opening up the dash?

 

[Fastatv]

OK, I did a little more research.
Using this picture, I was able to determine a few more problems.
View attachment 17360
I have 12 volts on the Hazzard Flasher and Horn wires, but not on the Turn Flasher. I'll need to figure out why the Turn Flasher has no voltage. I'm hoping it's just a fuse. There's one blown and one missing.

As stated before, all lights except reverse, work, but nothing blinks.

I unhooked the turn signal switch and checked for continuity at the plug between the various wires when the switch is in various positions. Everything seems to work correctly.
Turn signal wire shorts to left rear and left front when switched to left.
Turn signal wire shorts to right rear and right rear when switched to right.
Hazzard flasher wire shorts to all four corners.
Brake switch shorts to right and left rear.

The thing I find odd is I have 12 volts at the hazzard flasher wire, but when I activate the hazzard switch, the voltage drops to 0.

I'm thinking my next step will be to remove the dash panel and start tracing wires to see what the problem may be. I'm guessing I have either a cut or shorted wire, or a combination of both.

Is there something else I should look at before opening up the dash?

On My 76 CJ, none of the turn signals worked. After cleaning each socket, and the wire connector for the rear lights, they all worked.....for a while. Then the left signal quit working again. This ended up being loose/dirty connectors in the area of the steering column, under the dash. Cleaned those two connectors......everything has worked ever since. And yes, check to ensure you have a good fuse in the fuse block for the turn signals. Then its just a matter of using a test light and knowing which wires to check. The wiring in these old jeeps is really fairly simple. Anyway, hope this helps in some way and keep us posted.

 

[dtrojcak]

I'm hoping that it's ends up being just a loose/dirty connector somewhere.

The PO installed new rear lights for sure, possibly all/most lights.
I'm thinking the grounds are all good since the parking lights and brakes lights all work.
I'm hoping that the turn signals and reverse lights problems are caused by the same thing. I might get lucky and fix two problems at once.

Does anyone have a clue as to why my 12volts on the hazard wire drops to zero when hazard switch is activated? Or is that normal?

 

[Fastatv]

Don't know if that's normal or not. Do you hear the flasher clicking? The flasher removes the 12v, then allows the 12v, then removes it. I guess you probably know that but during the half a second it removes the 12v, you may not see it on your meter, depending on the quality of your meter. Which are you using to test with, a meter or a test light?

 

[dtrojcak]

Don't know if that's normal or not. Do you hear the flasher clicking? The flasher removes the 12v, then allows the 12v, then removes it. I guess you probably know that but during the half a second it removes the 12v, you may not see it on your meter, depending on the quality of your meter. Which are you using to test with, a meter or a test light?

I heard no clicking from the flasher.
If the hazard flasher was bad, could it ground out the voltage without popping a fuse? I didn't think to remove it and check voltage there. I'll do that next time.
I'm using both a meter and a test light.

 

[Fastatv]

Have you already cleaned the bulb sockets and associated wire connections?

 

[dtrojcak]

Have you already cleaned the bulb sockets and associated wire connections?

Not yet.
The rear lights are new. I did remove the red lens and everything looked new and shiny, no visible corrosion.
Would the park and brake lights still work if something was corroded/dirty?

It started raining again at that point, so I closed everything up and went inside.
I work till 7pm today, then I'm off Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.
Depending on the weather, I'll get into it more then.
I'm thinking that the flasher wire may be somehow not hooked up to the lights. That would explain why the park and brake lights work, but not the flashers. Or is that even possible?

 

[Fastatv]

Not yet.
The rear lights are new. I did remove the red lens and everything looked new and shiny, no visible corrosion.
Would the park and brake lights still work if something was corroded/dirty?

It started raining again at that point, so I closed everything up and went inside.
I work till 7pm today, then I'm off Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.
Depending on the weather, I'll get into it more then.
I'm thinking that the flasher wire may be somehow not hooked up to the lights. That would explain why the park and brake lights work, but not the flashers. Or is that even possible?

The brake light elements are the same for turn signals and flashers so they are probably good to go. On my front signals, the parking lights worked ok, but no hazard or turn signals. For my jeep, cleaning the sockets and the wire connectors that plug into the parking/signal lights made mine work.
I'm going to ask a dumb question here....are you sure you are using the correct flashers? And all fuses are good and in place? I will look at a wiring diagram and try to help you out.

 

[dtrojcak]

The brake light elements are the same for turn signals and flashers so they are probably good to go. On my front signals, the parking lights worked ok, but no hazard or turn signals. For my jeep, cleaning the sockets and the wire connectors that plug into the parking/signal lights made mine work.
I'm going to ask a dumb question here....are you sure you are using the correct flashers? And all fuses are good and in place? I will look at a wiring diagram and try to help you out.

I believe my turn signal fuse may be missing or blown. I have one slot missing a fuse and another slot with a blown fuse. I picked up some fuses yesterday at WalMart and will look at that later.
I'm thinking that if I get the hazards working, then it should be simple to get the turn signals working, or vice versa.

I'm pretty sure my hazard fuse is good. I have 12volts on the hazard wire on the connector going to the turn signal switch in the column.
When I activate the hazard switch, that 12volts disappears though. I'm not sure if that is normal or not.

As far as flashers go, I have no idea if they are the correct ones or not.
It had 2 flashers installed when I bought it, 1 for hazards, 1 for turn signals.
I went to NAPA and bought another turn signal flasher, hoping that would be the simple fix. When I went to install it, I then noticed that there are separate flashers for turn and hazards, so I figured that would not be my problem.

My white reverse lights do not work either. I don't know if that is related or not to the blinker problem. Just throwing it out there in case they are linked somewhere.

 

[dtrojcak]

I did a little more troubleshooting today and I'm now more confused than when I started.
Both the hazard and turn signal fuses are good. I have 12volts on both ends of the fuses.
I have 12 volts on the hazard wire at the turn signal switch connector coming from the steering column. When I activate the hazard switch, this 12volts drops to 0volts.
I do NOT have 12 volts on the turn signal wire at this connector. Yes the key was on. I even tried it with the engine running.

I unplugged the signal switch connector and ran a jumper wire straight from the fuse to the left rear light wire on the vehicle side connector. Left rear light came on. Repeated the procedure for the other 3 corners, all lights worked.

I then ran a jumper from the fuse to one of the tabs on the flasher relay.
Ran another jumper from the other tab to the left rear light wire.
Flasher relay clicks off and on. Left rear light flashes.
I tried this with both of the relays that were installed when I bought the jeep and the new one I bought from NAPA and all 3 worked.

I then reconnected the turn signal connector and ran a jumper.
I ran a jumper from the fuse to a tab on the flasher relay.
I then ran a jumper from the other tab to the flasher wire on the connector.
Moved blinker switch to the left and both the front and rear left side lights flash.
Moved blinker switch to the right and both front and rear right side lights flash.
Moved jumper from the flasher wire to the hazard wire, activated hazard switch and all four corners flash.

With the hazard flasher removed from the socket, I have 12 volts on one of the tabs on the fuse box.
With the turn signal flasher removed from the socket, I do NOT have 12 volts on either of the tabs.

At this point, I'm thinking I have something that is corroded/bad inside the fusebox.
I'm considering running a wire from one of the open tabs in the fuse box to two fuses. Then connect one fuse to the hazard flasher and then splice that into the hazard wire that goes to the connector, then do the same with the other fuse for the turn signal wire, effectively bypassing all the connection in the fusebox.

Any thoughts?

 

[Fastatv]

I did a little more troubleshooting today and I'm now more confused than when I started.
Both the hazard and turn signal fuses are good. I have 12volts on both ends of the fuses.
I have 12 volts on the hazard wire at the turn signal switch connector coming from the steering column. When I activate the hazard switch, this 12volts drops to 0volts.
I do NOT have 12 volts on the turn signal wire at this connector. Yes the key was on. I even tried it with the engine running.

I unplugged the signal switch connector and ran a jumper wire straight from the fuse to the left rear light wire on the vehicle side connector. Left rear light came on. Repeated the procedure for the other 3 corners, all lights worked.

I then ran a jumper from the fuse to one of the tabs on the flasher relay.
Ran another jumper from the other tab to the left rear light wire.
Flasher relay clicks off and on. Left rear light flashes.
I tried this with both of the relays that were installed when I bought the jeep and the new one I bought from NAPA and all 3 worked.

I then reconnected the turn signal connector and ran a jumper.
I ran a jumper from the fuse to a tab on the flasher relay.
I then ran a jumper from the other tab to the flasher wire on the connector.
Moved blinker switch to the left and both the front and rear left side lights flash.
Moved blinker switch to the right and both front and rear right side lights flash.
Moved jumper from the flasher wire to the hazard wire, activated hazard switch and all four corners flash.

With the hazard flasher removed from the socket, I have 12 volts on one of the tabs on the fuse box.
With the turn signal flasher removed from the socket, I do NOT have 12 volts on either of the tabs.

At this point, I'm thinking I have something that is corroded/bad inside the fusebox.
I'm considering running a wire from one of the open tabs in the fuse box to two fuses. Then connect one fuse to the hazard flasher and then splice that into the hazard wire that goes to the connector, then do the same with the other fuse for the turn signal wire, effectively bypassing all the connection in the fusebox.

Any thoughts?

Ok, fuses are installed and you have power as you should. You are really digging into the electrical man! Good job! I think your problems have been a bit different than mine, and maybe more complicated. You had 12v on the hazard, but did not on the flasher....was the key on? I would imagine that the jumpers would work....you have already proven that, and do as you see fit but, but if it were me, I might give it a break, take a deep breath and maybe a cold beer and maybe dig a bit deeper My best guess is that you are not making good connections in one of the several connectors under the dash. Today, I will look at the schematic and try to get you some feedback. It will be late this evening, but I will do my best. Hang in there dt.......I think your close on this.

 

[dtrojcak]

Ok, fuses are installed and you have power as you should. You are really digging into the electrical man! Good job! I think your problems have been a bit different than mine, and maybe more complicated. You had 12v on the hazard, but did not on the flasher....was the key on? I would imagine that the jumpers would work....you have already proven that, and do as you see fit but, but if it were me, I might give it a break, take a deep breath and maybe a cold beer and maybe dig a bit deeper My best guess is that you are not making good connections in one of the several connectors under the dash. Today, I will look at the schematic and try to get you some feedback. It will be late this evening, but I will do my best. Hang in there dt.......I think your close on this.

The problem is, I do NOT have power as I should.
The turn signal circuit has no power at all and the hazard circuit's power disappears when it is activated.

At this point, I'm thinking I have a bad/corroded/defective fuse box.
That would make sense why the hazard voltage disappears.
I deal with this all the time as a cable TV system tech.
Corroded/rusty connections will show the proper voltage with no load. When the load is reapplied, the voltage drops out because the current can't cross the bad connection.

This leads me to my next choice.
Do I bypass the fuse box with my "jumpered system" as I described above and hope nothing else fails in the fuse box later?
Or do I replace the entire fuse box now and not worry about it?

If I bypass the fuse box, I could be up and running today, but may very well have similar problems later down the road.
If I replace the fuse box, it'll be days before it arrives from whereever I buy it, and may take a few hours to install.
In the back of my mind, I know I need to replace it and be done. I'm just not sure if I want to tackle that right now.

 

[Fastatv]

The problem is, I do NOT have power as I should.
The turn signal circuit has no power at all and the hazard circuit's power disappears when it is activated.

At this point, I'm thinking I have a bad/corroded/defective fuse box.
That would make sense why the hazard voltage disappears.
I deal with this all the time as a cable TV system tech.
Corroded/rusty connections will show the proper voltage with no load. When the load is reapplied, the voltage drops out because the current can't cross the bad connection.

This leads me to my next choice.
Do I bypass the fuse box with my "jumpered system" as I described above and hope nothing else fails in the fuse box later?
Or do I replace the entire fuse box now and not worry about it?

If I bypass the fuse box, I could be up and running today, but may very well have similar problems later down the road.
If I replace the fuse box, it'll be days before it arrives from whereever I buy it, and may take a few hours to install.
In the back of my mind, I know I need to replace it and be done. I'm just not sure if I want to tackle that right now.

I must have misunderstood. I thought you had good power at fuses. Me, personally, I don't like to use jumpers, I like to find the problem and resolve it. I too thought that I had a fuse block issue, but I didn't, just dirty connectors in the area of the steering column and all the socket connectors. Anyway, if you need to drive it....or just dying to drive it :drool:, use the jumpers for now, and if you feel strongly ( preferably prove the fuse box defective ) that the fuse block is the issue, then jumper, drive, and install the new block when you get the chance. I would make sure that when you use the jumpers that the fuses are still in series with the jumps...for protection.

 

[dtrojcak]

I must have misunderstood. I thought you had good power at fuses. Me, personally, I don't like to use jumpers, I like to find the problem and resolve it. I too thought that I had a fuse block issue, but I didn't, just dirty connectors in the area of the steering column and all the socket connectors. Anyway, if you need to drive it....or just dying to drive it :drool:, use the jumpers for now, and if you feel strongly ( preferably prove the fuse box defective ) that the fuse block is the issue, then jumper, drive, and install the new block when you get the chance. I would make sure that when you use the jumpers that the fuses are still in series with the jumps...for protection.

I have good power at the fuses. I do not have good power on the other side of a 3' wire at the steering column connector.

I'm fixing to tear into the fuse box and see what I find in there.
I'm hoping I find a corroded connector or two that can be cleaned/replaced and that will fix my problem.

If I go the jumper route, I will definitely still have fuses in the circuit, but thanks for the reminder.

The jeep has several issues. I'm tackling them one at a time, so as to not get overwhelmed.
The flashers don't work.
The reverse lights don't work.
The radio doesn't come on with key to the left.
The fuel, oil, temp, and amp gauges don't work.
The exhaust headers are cracked.

The blinkers and the exhaust crack are keeping it from passing inspection and being street-legal, hence my impatience to get it fixed.

Again, thanks to everyone who has offered advice/tips.
I WILL get this done.

 

[dtrojcak]

Oh my.
I now know why I see people complaining about the PO of their jeeps.

This morning I pulled the dash panel down, pulled the fuse panel off of the firewall, unwrap the wire bundles, and began tracing wires.
I started with the wire that is supposed to feed power to the turn signal fuse and flasher. I found a spot where the PO had spliced on a piece of speaker wire, yes speaker wire, about 6 inches away from the ignition switch. This splice had pulled loose. Connected the feed wire directly to ignition switch, and now I have blinkers. YEEAAAHH!!!
Still don't have flashers, but I'm not real worried about that for now.

Then the fun begins, lol.
I started tracing other wires that feed some other dash lights, etc. that weren't working.
I find splice after splice after splice.

The PO had doors with no outside handles and used a remote-controlled electric plunger thing. With only a bikini top and no hard top, I figured that I'll never need that so I started disconnect all the wires that lead to that contraption.
The PO really loved to splice wires together. The ground wire from the stereo he installed had 3 splices in it. No other wires spliced into it. I guess he had 3 pieces of 6" wires, but didn't have 1 24" wire left after all of the other rigging he had done.

 

[dtrojcak]

Here's the speaker wire splices on the ignition switch.
View attachment 17395

Here's the wires that I have removed so far.
View attachment 17396

 

[dtrojcak]

I do have some more questions though.
The circled "ignition switch" is not connected to anything.
The two wires are both in the connector, but neither of them are connected to anything else. Should this be connected to anything?

Also, the circled "parking brake" connector is not connected to anything.
It's hanging close to the parking brake pedal, but I couldn't find where it was supposed to connect.
View attachment 17397

 

[Torxhead]

That parking brake connector plugs into a switch which grounds the circuit out and turns the light on the dash cluster. The connection is located just behind where the e-brake cable goes into the underdash linkage. That ignition switch that you have circled is just part of the ignition switch wiring. The rest of the switch diagram is located just below and the right on the schematic.