What did I do wrong (TR ignition upgrade)

[cyberworm]

Good morning fellow jeep nuts! I need your help, advice, and encouragement.

After a tough week and a half of getting my Jeep in good working order, I decided that I want to start with the Team Rush ignition upgrade. I don't have pockets deep enough to go full out with the MSD controller, but I had just enough scratch to get the upgraded distributor cap, rotor, and cables.

So, before starting my day, I came here and read the thread (twice), went out to get the parts which had to be ordered, came home, and read the upgrade thread again, just to be absolutely sure of what I was doing.

So, as the day goes on and I'm confident that I can change the dizzy, my parts come in. Soooo, I head down to autozone and pick up my parts. Right there in their lot, I make the swap and am certain I have done everything right. Plugs wires in proper order, rotor in place, and everything is as it should be.

The problems? She started very very hard. So, I go check all of the connections and try again. I get her to start, but she's misfiring badly. So I recheck all of the cables, and try again. She started hard, would run a bit, and give her some gas... She shakes violently, screams a little and practically dies. I'm certain it's a misfire situation (though there was no backfiring). Adjusted the timing and tried again. Same thing, onlyt this time it's a hard clunk while starting, with some smoke coming out of the carb and air cleaner assembly.

At this point I'm flummuxed and tired of being in the AutoZone parking lot making my jeep look bad, so I put the old dizzy cap and wires back on, and truck on out to pick up my girl and head home. While I'm picking her up, and idling, I notice smoke coming out of the exhaust. It looks to be blueish white (and has never done this before). It cleared up, but was still a bit disconcerting, and taking her for a short ride this morning she wasn't smoking, but was idling pretty rough (it may be a timing issue while cold...). She is smelling like fuel pretty badly too.

What am I doing wrong? I installed a new stock ignition coil and stock module last weekend, all of my plugs are new (only about a week old), brand new battery, new alternator belt, new fan/PS belt. The engine was rebuilt a year ago and only has about 400 miles on her now. I'm certain I read everything properly and that I could start with just the dizzy and plug wires. I get horrible gas milage, so my main reason for upgrading is to help that situation. I figure putting the money into increasing her economy now, is better than burning money at the pump until I can upgrade later. She's an '84 with the AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l carter 2bbl sitting on 33" with about a 5" lift. Help?

 

[Torxhead]

My first guess would be an improperly installed distributor. When you installed it, did you line up the rotor to the #1 position(Thats how I do it)? Did you get another distributor from AZ? As for your gas mileage, I first would question the relationship of your diff gear ratio to the tire diameter.

 

[cyberworm]

Well, I didn't install a new distributor, just a new cap and rotor. From what I had read, it looked like a new distributor isn't needed. Is that the case, or do I need to get a distributor also. It wasn't listed in the required parts. Doing a little research this morning, I didn't set the engine to TDC, since it was only the cap and rotor being replaced. Is that my fatal flaw? I'm starting to think maybe it is/was.

As for fuel economy, it's sittig on 33" with a 5 speed tranny. I'm not sure which one at the moment (though I think I recall it being the one that "isn't so great", T-15 I think?)

 

[Torxhead]

So, you did not remove the distributor right? and now you have the original cap,rotor, and wires? When your engine is at TDC, the rotor should be pointing at the location where the #1 spark plug wire is located on the cap when installed. You do have a computer controlled engine and there is a specific way to set the ignition timing. The instructions for it should be on the radiator housing. If you have a five speed Transmission it is probably a T-5 . If you still have the original gears in the differentials, driving with a 33" tire where a 28" originally was it will hamper performance and economy. The "Team Rush Upgrade" will help your ignition system by helping stop spark arcing inside the distributor cap and provide a little bit better spark to the plugs, but that is it. Your issues seem to go a bit beyond that.

 

[njdave]

Really sounds like ur spark plug wires are crossed up.

 

[cyberworm]

Yep, you are correct. I _did not_ remove the distributor (sorry for not being clear on that).

At the moment, just running, I'm using the original cap and rotor, and she is running pretty well. I'm going to go out and redo the vacuum lines and such, so maybe I will wait to upgrade the cap and rotor until after I accomplish this.

The problem I was describing, happened after upgrading to the larger cap. In order to get rolling, I switched back to my original cap and rotor. It seems to be a pretty straightforward process to swap these items out, so I'm unclear why it was such an ordeal to get it running. When I switch the cap and rotor do I need to have it at TDC or should that not be an issue? I'm going to check later this afternoon to see that the distributor rotor lines up with TDC (I've never actually lined up an engine to TDC, so I'm looking forward to the attempt) and hopefully go from there. Right now the way she runs and everything, even though the timing seems a little off, I'm working under the assumption everything is in normal working condition.

 

[cyberworm]

Really sounds like ur spark plug wires are crossed up.

That's what I thought too. I sat there with the haynes manual and checked it, checked it, and checked it some more. The only possible thing I feel like was wrong with the setup, is how the wires were angled (closer together) than they were before. The way things are under there, it seems impossible to make them go in a straight line/keep them separated. Would it make that huge of a difference?

 

[cyberworm]

You do have a computer controlled engine and there is a specific way to set the ignition timing. The instructions for it should be on the radiator housing.

Nope. Don't have the instructions anymore. It looks like the radiator was replaced at the same time the engine was rebuilt. That was done long before I owned her, and she has also been repainted since. Anything under the hood that could have provided any kind of information from the factory has long since disappeared.

 

[njdave]

The easiest way to see if the wires are cross firing is to run the motor in the dark you can see the sparks. But a far as changing the cap and rotor it's just a simple swap unless the rotor is put on 180 degrees off

 

[Torxhead]

You don't need to have the rotor at TDC to change ignition wires, they just need to go in the same location they were in before. The larger Ford ignition cap should have a #1 location on it plus it should also have brass contact points on the inside. Personally, for electrical items I prefer the Echlin brand from NAPA auto parts, I am sure they cost more. You should understand the performance difference with using such a large diameter tire with oem diff gears. Pretty sure it has a 2.73 or a 3.31 to 1 gear ratio where with that size tire it will bog down and it is harder on the clutch.

 

[cyberworm]

The easiest way to see if the wires are cross firing is to run the motor in the dark you can see the sparks. But a far as changing the cap and rotor it's just a simple swap unless the rotor is put on 180 degrees off

Unfortunately for me, that's easier said than done. I don't have a garage to work in. My only real option is to work on her during the day while the sun is shining, and have her back together before the sun sets. That's a good idea that I will definitely keep in mind should the opportunity arise.

 

[cyberworm]

You don't need to have the rotor at TDC to change ignition wires, they just need to go in the same location they were in before. The larger Ford ignition cap should have a #1 location on it plus it should also have brass contact points on the inside. Personally, for electrical items I prefer the Echlin brand from NAPA auto parts, I am sure they cost more. You should understand the performance difference with using such a large diameter tire with oem diff gears. Pretty sure it has a 2.73 or a 3.31 to 1 gear ratio where with that size tire it will bog down and it is harder on the clutch.

Hmm. So yeah, I'm back to square 1 then, though will have to figure out a way to check for cross fire. It seems like the wires are the culprit, though I swapped them out for a second set, figuring the first set I had were bad.

As for the tires and the gearing, I understand. She definitely starts to run a bit harder/slow down going uphill, to where I have to downshift. I'm not expecting 30mpg or anything, but I don't think 20mpg highway is toooooooo much to ask. I'm getting about 8mpg right now which seems pretty dang low.

 

[njdave]

If you put the original cap and rotor on and it runs fine. Then the problem has to be with the new parts.

 

[cyberworm]

Just wanted to post a note, that I've held off on the larger distributor for the moment. I will update how the larger distributor goes when I make the swap again in the near future. I'm nuttering and redoing the vacuum system, since it seems to have been completely hosed. The dist advance was running to the EGR! Who knows how much other stuff was wrong with the way they were running. I found some diagrams at jeep forum, and have been reading till late nights trying to figure out the best way to do all of this. It's all still super new to me (I've never actually done any of this stuff on any vehicle). It's (so far) been a fun frustrating learning experience.

 

[Torxhead]

About doing a Nutter by-pass in a smog state. That changeover will eliminate the communication between the distributor and computer which will also effect how the computer controls the carburator. This can have a major effect when you have a visit to the smog man, but I can say that I was able to get mine to pass with it. The John Nutter By-pass can help out if your emissions equipment is shot, and that can mask off the problem. The distributor advance is controlled by a combination of computer and mechanical, and the by-pass will eliminate the computer from it not allowing the distributor to fully advance. My two cents. Replacing all off the vacumn lines makes sure that all the 28 year old lines are gone.

 

[GatorBate]

you might check out this write up that TeamRush did about "rotor phasing" If your rotor is out of phase it will fire before the rotor is lined up correctly with the cap. The larger cap would exaggerate the problem. I did this and it improved my performance a lot.

http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/problems-931/

http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/what-did-i-do-wrong-tr-ignition-upgrade-15467/index2.html

 

[cyberworm]

Thanks for the head's up with those last two posts.

So here's a little story. For the past 3 days, I've been at her, trying to get her to run appropriately. Heck, it's what I started this thread with last thursday, so I'll start there, but bounce around in time, so bear with me...

Before I started modding/upgrading, I did a lot of studying about this engine. Reading the forums here that looked like it might provide insight into why my engine was running soo poorly, and reading everything, tinkering slightly, asking questions, and reading more, along with having a haynes manual at my side. This weekend has been a bit of a challenge, since from reading then looking at my engine and, (you guessed it) reading some more, it became very apparent that the vacuum hoses/system were completely WRONG! How she even ran at all, is a mystery. I like to think she loves me and didn't want me to give up. Lucky for her, I do enjoy troubleshooting and problem solving. I definately am not one to let a machine beat me.
So, with the knowledge that the vacuum system needed an overhaul, I set out to the parts store to pickup new vac line and set to work. At the same time, seeing that the nutter bypass would need a different vac configuration, I decided I would just do it all. Yesterday, I had the wiring hooked up and as many of you know, that was a cakewalk. Looking at the diagrams, the plumbing for the vac seemed to be pretty straightforward as well and once I had it plumbed, things just weren't working right. I spent the whole day tracing everything around, checking the diagram, and tracing it again. All day until the sun went down and I had to pack it in for the night.
Today, after a leisurely morning of watching cartoons and drinking coffee, I reread everything once again, and found a diagram that was different than the previous one I had used. I tried plumbing it up that way, and had a little more success. Now, here's the thing. I don't have a timing light, and all of this stuff is extremely new to me. I have to adjust the timing by how the engine is running and what I think sounds "about right." I was using the previous timing as a baseline, and when I got frustrated with that, I pulled the dist cap, and rolled the engine over by hand to line up the timing mark, so I could see where the rotor was pointing and at least have a somewhat educated guess as to what should be going on. Having done that, (and keep in mind, everything was plumbed right) I kept having issues, and could not, for the life of me figure out what was going on. It kept misfiring and just running like poo. It was at this point I pulled the original cap and rotor, and went with the larger one that I had previously given up on. Now, switching to this larger cap and rotor it exaggerated the problem, and made it very apparent what exactly was going on. It was the timing!!!! It was way too far advanced. I think if I had more experience with engines (or had someone who knew what they were doing) around it would have saved me hours of head scratching and climbing around. Once I retarded the timing by a whole lot, she started right up and started running oh so smoothly. It kind of feels like the idle is rough, but on the road she will and git, and I couldn't be happier. She also idles down the street just fine, which here (in Venice) is great for cutting down the alleys on the weekends.

A few things to note, that cause me a little concern, is that I was unable to move the stepper pins at all, so for the time being they are still pulled into the motor (with the shoulder right at the edge of the opening), so I have the idle screws out quite a bit. Somewhere around 5 full turns out. Is this "right?" Also, the vacuum advance doesn't appear to be working, though I was working on it by myself and obviously can't hold the throttle AND see the distributor. I got her to 50mph in 3rd gear, with plenty of room left to keep going through 4th. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I could probably cruise her at 70mph in 5th gear without a problem. I have a few things I want to clean up before hitting the freeway and seeing what's going on. That'll be for a late evening drive when there are fewer people around and I can open it up safely. She's also guzzling gas pretty hardcore, in just my small victory drive of about 15 miles (city). I put about 5 gallons in, and I burned through about a quarter of a tank. Not sure if that is what others are getting in the city, if that's normal, or if it's just a symptom of me still learning to drive her. Granted I was excited to have her running so well, that I may have been romping on the pedal a bit more than one should if trying to get decent mpg.

All in all, I have to say that the nutter bypass and the upgraded dist cap have made a huge difference. Though, admittedly, she wasn't plumbed right when I started, so my baseline is a bit skewed anyways. I plan on tweaking her more as I learn more (carb tuning advice anyone?), so hopefully I'll have her dialed in appropriately when I have to visit the smog man next year (or two years... I don't know exactly).

Next on my list of projects, is to remove the steering wheel and put it in the right way. The jokers that put it on didn't bother to pay attention to which way, so it's upside down. It's nothing too fancy, just the original steering wheel, with the original horn cap (it's got the AMC logo!), which tickles me a bit. It's been fun going through and seeing the AMC logo on misc parts under the hood. I was just like "man, that is pretty dang old..." The other things I want to start on is replacing bushings on the tie rods, sway bars, etc. They are so worn it's not even funny.

 

[GatorBate]

Glad to hear she is running better for you. A timing light is a very good investment. It takes a lot of the guess work out of solving ignition problems.

 

[Torxhead]

Thanks for the heads up.