Engines - SBC or Buick 225?

[RECJ5]

Looking for some opinions on engines. I plan to sell my '59, but I'm torn between swapping its 283v8 into the '66 (which currently has a Buick 225) before I do. 283 runs well, no issues/leaks (rebuilt about 3k miles ago). 225 is unknown to me (was in the Jeep when purchased, have receipts saying it was rebuilt ~8 yrs ago, but no idea how many miles, seems to have some oil leaking - head gasket/rear main?). Whichever is kept will drive an SM420 / Dana 20 to Dana 30 /Dana 44 axles with 3.73. Currently have 33" tires, but thinking of reducing to 31". Easy to moderate off road - no planned rock crawling. Not overly worried about highway speeds. So, what say you: keep the 225 or keep the 283?

Note: I've been reading posts on this site for some time, but never really saw a need to post (never had a question that wasn't already answered). Seems like such a silly first post...

 

[Torxhead]

The odd fire 225 was the best engine put in to the older and lighter CJs in my opinion. I have wheeled with a few guys that have them and they work great in an off road Jeep. Having 3.73 gears, 4 speed, and 33" tires. Should be a great combination for on and off the highway.The desert east of where you live provides a variety of terrain that should keep you happy. That short wheelbase will help in those super tight washes and you could even install a set of paddle tires for the dunes.

 

[rufus1138]

im a huge fan of oddfire motors, and definitely not a fan of the sbc

 

[RECJ5]

Torxhead - pretty familiar with the Yuma area (Pops has a place out there and we visit often - typical terrain for off-road that I am interested in, minus the dunes.. not sure about that).

rufus1138 - What are you major hangups on the SBC?

I like that they both have similar HP, torque isn't really that much different (my SBC has a 2bbl and stock exhaust, 225 has 4bbl, HEI, and headers). Some of my concerns: time it takes to spin up the 225 vs 283. 225 seems more suited to slow / crawl, not so much acceleration - which is only really an issue on road or on loose hills where RPM matters). Parts availability - 225 odd fire is significantly more Limited vs SBC where parts are a dime a dozen.

Of course, the 225 being already installed saves a lot of effort (assuming the oil leak is just the RMS or valve covers).

Perhaps it is my lack of knowledge on the 225 that has me hesitant - all previous jeeps (CJ2a and CJ5 ) were stock 4 bangers, and the 283 is "common knowledge."

 

[hagar]

Take the V6 Jeep to the dunes.
Air your tires down.
Remove mufflers and run in the dunes.
The V6 really comes alive with open headers.
You'll be hooked from then on.
SBC horsepower, no, but I think you'll like what you have.

 

[tarry99]

Looking for some opinions on engines. I plan to sell my '59, but I'm torn between swapping its 283v8 into the '66 (which currently has a Buick 225) before I do. 283 runs well, no issues/leaks (rebuilt about 3k miles ago). 225 is unknown to me (was in the Jeep when purchased, have receipts saying it was rebuilt ~8 yrs ago, but no idea how many miles, seems to have some oil leaking - head gasket/rear main?). Whichever is kept will drive an SM420 / Dana 20 to Dana 30 /Dana 44 axles with 3.73. Currently have 33" tires, but thinking of reducing to 31". Easy to moderate off road - no planned rock crawling. Not overly worried about highway speeds. So, what say you: keep the 225 or keep the 283?

Note: I've been reading posts on this site for some time, but never really saw a need to post (never had a question that wasn't already answered). Seems like such a silly first post...

The Buick 225 Odd Fire is a nice little motor for your 66.......I have 3 of them here, but these motors are not without issues......notwithstanding built on 50+ year old technology , the oiling system is below average , as is the ignition. OEM crankshafts & connecting rods for these motors are getting really hard to find. Pistons & rings are still available as is bearings & seals. Rocker arm wear is also an issue as is camshafts and lifters.

I don't think it will like the 3.73 gears.....especially if it still has the 53+ pound flywheel behind it........if you like the old school odd fire sound of these little motors then by all means keep it in there for a while and test it out. There are still a ton of folks running those in there Jeeps.
On the flip side the SBC has by far the largest platform of aftermarket parts and accessories available.
In my next build I will be using a TPI 5.7 SBC.

 

[Saddle Tramp]

I vote for the Dauntless Buick 225 V6 too. Granted all of the little idiosyncrasies from the era tarry99 mentioned but if he owns 3 of them then there must be something to it. The Buick odd fire comes with a heavy flywheel that keeps the low end torque coming and is hard to beat.

The biggest mistake I ever made with all the CJs I’ve ever owned was to stuff a SBC 350 into a 1947 – 2A. I shoe horned it in ok and it ran like a mother but the subsequent repairs were killer. The extra weight of the SBC caused the frame to bend resulting in the steering shaft being pinched. Once I fixed the frame I proceeded to blow the T-90 Transmission and stock both axles; the only thing that held together was the Spicer 18 . (Maybe that’s why they had such a long run.) The only thing special to know is how to use a dwell meter.

 

[rufus1138]

My dislike for the sbc in this instance was perfectly stated by op in his second post, the sbc is "common knowledge" I'm just tired of sbc, everything gets run over with them, building a t-bucket roadster? Put an sbc up front, is what you will be told and like everything else you will see examples of, I'm just wore out on it. The Chevy small block is not an appropriate solution for everything with wheels ppl

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[Saddle Tramp]

My dislike for the sbc in this instance was perfectly stated by op in his second post, the sbc is "common knowledge" I'm just tired of sbc, everything gets run over with them, building a t-bucket roadster? Put an sbc up front, is what you will be told and like everything else you will see examples of, I'm just wore out on it. The Chevy small block is not an appropriate solution for everything with wheels ppl

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Well Put!

 

[tarry99]

My dislike for the sbc in this instance was perfectly stated by op in his second post, the sbc is "common knowledge" I'm just tired of sbc, everything gets run over with them, building a t-bucket roadster? Put an sbc up front, is what you will be told and like everything else you will see examples of, I'm just wore out on it. The Chevy small block is not an appropriate solution for everything with wheels ppl

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Wow , it must be lets throw the SBC under the bus day!
Lets give credit where credit is do! Nothing will ever change the fact that the SBC is the most prolific motor platform ever developed Period.

Is it best suited for a Jeep? Probably not in most cases.........for the short wheelbase early CJ's the Buick Odd fired V6 does a great job. I would even suggest that an Even Fired Dauntless Buick 225 V6 is also a good donor. I have owned many of both and the fact remains that finding support and parts for these little 50+ year old motors that have inherent oiling issues will continue to be a challenge going forward! No one makes OEM Blocks , crankshafts or rods for these anymore. The wrecking yards have been picked over for years as people continue to look for virgin parts. Re-builders still have some old crankshafts but most are near death in the .030/.030 range already.

If I was going to stick another V6 in a Jeep and God forbid I say this ..........it would be a 4.3 Chevy TBI V6.

I'm now building a 1965 CJ6 . 102" WB and I will be using a 1990 5.7 Tuned Port motor out of a Corvette with a 700R4 & Atlas behind it. Not because I'm in love with the motor but because it fits the bill for the build!............non complicated ECM, Speed density Fuel injected , 250 HP and 350 Ft lbs of table flat torque right off Idle........hard to beat that platform for street and trail drive-ability.

 

[rufus1138]

im just never a fan of the sbc talk, earlier on my phone it was harder to type but the example i was trying to get across is that it seems that any time powering a custom project comes up the sbc is heralded as the best choice, the fact of the matter is that there are lots of other options, cool ones like the oddfire motors, more utilitarian ones like the 4.3 chevy, or even *gasp* a small block ford. reality has set in ppl, the hype afforded to the sbc platform has driven the price of parts up, aside from being extremely un-original its becoming less economically viable to put in a chebby. i admit that 10-15 years ago you could pick up a "good ol tree fitty" for next to nothing and build it strong and powerful for less than anything equivalent but those times have passed us by, the amc v-8's are well supported and the operation cost isnt much different from the chevy platforms or the ford products.

now about the power side of things, especially with current prices, the only time a sbc is superior is a close to stock plug and play situation, if the engine in question is going to be "built" at all then costs balloon quickly unless you have a machine shop in ur back pocket and at that point everything changes to who offers the toughest blocks with the most bore capacity. hell if you want to talk about power density (the really important engineering factor at play here) why dont we bring up 2-stroke engine design, it still holds the record for power density in an internal combustion engine at more than 400hp/liter.

 

[Colorado Yeti]

Stating the obvious, but small block Chevys are cheap, durable, easy to build, are reliable and make great power. If you break something in East Toenail, Utah, you can usually get a part to fix it in short order.

Odd-fire Buick V-6's are ultra-cool, no doubt about it. Love the sound, especially with a set of fenderwell headers. But good luck finding parts quickly if you break down in the backwoods.

I replaced my AMC 304 with a 350 Chevy in my 1976 CJ7 Renegade in 1997, when you didn't see a whole lot of CJ7 's with small block Chevy's. I ran that engine in my Jeep until 2 years ago when I decided to go back to AMC power. I swapped the 350 for a built 360 AMC dyno'd at 330 HP. Frankly, I got sick of seeing so many Jeeps with Chevy V-8s and wanted my Jeep all AMC again. I am glad I did it.

Funny how everyone wanting to be "different" can sometimes make something different look the mundane. (Think: tatoos)

 

[RECJ5]

Thanks to all for your thoughts and insight. Haven't completely made up my mind, but given I want to get this ol jeep out on the trails sooner vice later I'm probably going to stick with the 225 for now (do need to find the source of the oil leak.. pretty sure it is the rear main based on flow at various nose up / nose down parking). Did a short test outing yesterday, nothing fancy just a washed out trail near the house. Did fine through the rough areas (a little rubbing of tires on wheel wells) and came down hill under compression with little to no brakes required (low and high range on the t/c and granny gear on SM420). On pavement it does seem a little underpowered (3.73 plus the 33" tires) - but then again, it isn't a drag racing vehicle... Slightly smaller tires, and maybe someday a gear swap to 4.56 or 4.88s should help. My first two jeeps ('46 CJ2a and '56 CJ5 ) both had stock I4s and drive trains writ large, so going to the 283 in the '59 was a huge change, and after 7 years with that setup it is a little hard to go back to a "stock" engine (since the HEI, headers, and 4bbl carb are certainly not stock on the 225, I guess I'm not giving up too much).

 

[Saddle Tramp]

RECJ5- Sorry your post more or less got high-jacked over the SBC but the point some of us are trying to make about them is that yes, they deserve all the accolades for being the leader of the pack in terms of availability, numbers built, and market support BUT, they are not the only toy in the box. We’ve had this discussion before on numerous occasions.

The other part to the discussion is to keep your jeep, jeep while still be able to use it for your intended purpose. Some of us run our jeeps on the sand dunes and mud laden trails while others are inching across the slick rock or maybe just a drive through town with the top off on a warm summer’s night for ice cream with the family but in a jeep that can get you to a fishing hole or camping spot that all the crossover SUV can only dream about; we are not all in the game for the same thrill even though driving a CJ has a common thrill regardless of what you do with it. A stock CJ albeit trail ready is not as capable as they can be so we modify them to better suit our needs but the key here is how the modifications are done. I have taken flack on this board for my call to keep your jeep, jeep when I run a Scout Dana 300 but in my view the Scout Dana is OK as my jeep is bolted together with all OEM parts (other than the 300) using no adaptors, everything is a direct bolt in and I still have the original 20 Transfer Case on the self should I ever want to reinstall it.

Some say, “The Dauntless Buick 225 V6 is still a GM engine”, and that is true but please remember that Jeep owned the tooling and rights to that engine at one time then sold it back to GM during the oil embargo in the 1970s as GM didn’t have a six cylinder engine they could use to compete with the Toyotas and Hondas that were making big inroads into the US during the time period. (If you have to sit in a line for an hour or so to buy gas after having been lucky enough to even find a station that had any gas to sell, coupled with the fact the number day of the month and the last number of your license plate needed to both be either even or both be odd or you couldn’t legally buy gas that day you can see how the SBC starts to not be so popular. I could go on about that issue but that’s another post.)

No matter what, keep your jeep, jeep!