Tie rod flip

[CJ]

Standard taper is 7.12 degrees (some say 7.15) and the Snap-On reamer is 7 degrees. You can get away with the difference but the reamer usually will wear out after 10 or so holes but should work for your application.

 

[MN CJ7]

Thanks Old Guy and CJ...... that helps knowing the angle for reemer

 

[Sasquach]

My Goferit sleeves came yesterday and with my wheels off and ball joints out and ready to go just waiting to confim drill size, Product looks good and a simple idea BUT drilling the arms is no walk in the park! I drilled from the top down for ease of holding the drill motor, because you are drilling into a thinning taper the drill wants to grab as you get toward the thinner area if not centered perfectly and there goes any simi press fit of the sleeve. Tried stepping the drill sizes and this provided little if any help, anyway got them all drilled but not as precision as hoped for and sleeves tack welded in with a few extras for good measure.
The right way to do this would be to remove the knuckle and put in the drill press but obviously that is alot of extra work.

 

[Sasquach]

Completed the flip and wanted to report very positive results.
This made a very noticable improvement in steering and besides better reaction to wheel input it is now much more stable going down the road to the point I can now let the wife drive the thing without worry she'd overcorrect it's wandering and the thing.

For reference I have about 4" of lift.

 

[Petescj]

Looks like another job well done.

 

[Old Dog]

Do you have any idea why it helped your steering so much?
I gained back my steering radius by using my srock arm instead of the drop arm, but it didn't really change anything else.

 

[Sasquach]

I only have an idea but first off the longer arm makes the steering wheel to linkage more factory designed correct and the other thing is the drop arm puts more leverage on the steering box than ever designed for. Looking at the overall length from ball end to box mount was what got my attention in starting this mod. or return from mod?
It does drive better for whatever reason?

 

[Sasquach]

To add to the above.
I have been on a crusade to make this thing more drivable and prior to this I had replaced ball ends ,corrected caster, replaced a worn steering box, installed a new intermidiate shaft and yes it did get better along the way but still not quite right. This last bit of work was just another link in the chain to getting things right and I am feeling good about it now.

 

[Germy]

Did this correct bump steer? That is my problem. Going down the road it's fine, once bumps appear, the hits the fan.( not sure if I can say that) let me know!!!!

 

[Sasquach]

Well never have noticed bump steer before or after. My suspension does not move enough going down the road for this to be of any notice, it's not like an El Dorado wallowing down the highway.
If you have a lifted CJ that needs a drop pitman this mod is a better alternative to the drop for a few reasons.

 

[Guy Smiley]

I just started this flip using the reamer and sleeve method. I reamed till the sleeve prodruded to 1/64" as the instruction indicate. then you place the sleeve in the bottom and it's suposed to be flush. The two on the passenger side were flush after taping them in but the driver side prodrudes 1/8". No taping is going to get it flush. Anyone else that's done this reamer method run into this problem?

Thanks, Ernie

 

[7D8CJ]

I used the M.O.R.E. set up. Turned out nice but kinda Squirrely at high speeds. :dunno:

 

[Guy Smiley]

Here is a picture of the joint.

Anybody run into this?

 

[MN CJ7]

Do you have any idea why it helped your steering so much?
I gained back my steering radius by using my srock arm instead of the drop arm, but it didn't really change anything else.

I only have an idea but first off the longer arm makes the steering wheel to linkage more factory designed correct and the other thing is the drop arm puts more leverage on the steering box than ever designed for. Looking at the overall length from ball end to box mount was what got my attention in starting this mod. or return from mod?
It does drive better for whatever reason?

Maybe I can help a bit on this and why it works better....

Think of this like a wrench and how many Ft# of torque you are going to apply to the torque wrench. If you push down on the wrench handle like trying to bend a rod with a deep well socket you will not have any torque to measure on the torque wrench. Move your hand and force 90 and push the torque wrench and all of your force will measure on the torque wrench measurement.. From the perfect tangent at 90 deg to the torque wrench, all the force will be measure in torque... As you move the force angle to the 90 so you push down NONE of the force will measure on the torque wrench.. The the torque wrench will not pushed it in the ratchet directing at all...... you will get less and less and less force on the torque wrench as you approach the 90 off angle example of pushing down the the wrench handle....

well same for your steering arm and the tie rod that is fliped.. Now it is more perpendicular to the max force angle. Use the max force angle to get the best performance in steering. Best angles make the steering arm rotate and turn the tire direction... So we want the fliped tie rod to be level and a 90 deg angle to the arm when going straight to max the force applied for steering..

If a drop pitman arm is used the mount of steering box on the frame is furhter from it force.... ie this is a longer lever arm, thus more adverse leverage on the steering box mounting..... That creats more moments or leaveage on the frame mount.... causes flex, frame breakage, mount bolts to loosen up, mount brackets to break. Jack up the CJ attach a 6 ft crow bar to the steeringin pit man arm and you could tear the box right off the frame if you use a long enough lever.

Mine drives well with 33 tires... bigger tires need more mods to make it drive well off/on road.. I still need the colar to frame bracket/support and do the tie rod flip and do a HD Mounting Bracket for the steering box. I am also doing a winch mounting and will be tied into frame... This will stiffen the front frame and help lock in the steering box that is mounted to the drivers side frame...

Hope that helps...


if you want to see a picture and more on forces
Google Vector Forces

 

[Sasquach]

That's what I thought but but had no idea how to relate it.

 

[Sasquach]

I used the M.O.R.E. set up. Turned out nice but kinda Squirrely at high speeds. :dunno:

Nice work! Check your caster angle, I will bet $ you have less than the desired amount. I know this because I have the same suspension although shorter shackles now which help along with the degree shims I put between spring perch and spring.

 

[Sasquach]

Here is a picture of the joint.

Anybody run into this?

Are you supposed to grind flush with arm? that would be my thinking and that is what happens with the sleeve type system.

 

[Guy Smiley]

Are you supposed to grind flush with arm? that would be my thinking and that is what happens with the sleeve type system.

Instuction don't mention grinding and the others did fit flush. I guess I'll take it apart and have another look

thanks

 

[MN CJ7]

Are you supposed to grind flush with arm? that would be my thinking and that is what happens with the sleeve type system.

I would agree.... a guess on my part...

If the sleeve is not recessed or flush then the nut is not holding down the sleeve and the tie rod is held down by the sleeve lower surface and not the steering arm metal surface...

IDEA
A flat washer and lock washer that goes over the sleeve would solve the issue... My first guess was 2 std washers but if a lock washer is used that will help take up temp expansions and seems a better combo... I would use good stuff like grade 8 washers they are stiffer...

Idealy the sleeve should end just below the surface of the tie rod metal surface... We want to be as long as possible but protruding out does not seem like a good Idea to me and possible is a safety issue...

A call to the mfg tech support or product management would also be a good idea... may even give them this thread and ask them to comment...

What do you guys think



Good thread, thank you guys

 

[MN CJ7]

Getting rid of the dropped pitman arm and doing the tie rod flip will help bump steer a lot. The goal is to get the drag link to be horizontal.

If the drag link is at a steep angle then as the suspension compresses, the axle and steering knuckle are closer to the steering box. That forces the tire to the right as you go over a bump. And then the tire goes to the left as the suspension extends. That's your bump steer.
I have a tie rod flip.

Thanks Dave,

This is also very good info... When at a strong angle and your front end goes up on bump in road or down can be issue.. Haveing it flat to start with will min movenment because the arm will change in length less. Let the drag link hang some and get a big bump and arm should be shorter to stay straight.... Arm does not change and like a triangle... as it bumps up the arm does not need to be that long and pushes the tire out or to the right...

So Bump Steer and Better Force being applied to steering the wheels can be both had and improved by making the drag link as horizontal as possible..

Oh the path to better CJ steering...


Thanks,



PS
Dave once help by me posting similar drawing for the std drive shaft angles with a nice dwg too... "top angle of drive shaft and bottom angle of drive shaft need to be the same" Used his info to ck my drive line angles and got lucky what I did worked.. They match to about a 1 deg angle...



This is also very good