Timing Chain, Distributor, or other problem? ANY Advice?

[poppi]

Wow fellow jeepers, this website is a great resource! I've done some research here and am now in process of attempting a timing chain/replacement, but I've got some questions. Here is the run down:
Got my first jeep in June, a 1980 CJ7 with a AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l . Supposedly had 12k on rebuilt motor. I knew I would need to do some work on it myself but took it to local reputable mechanic to get me started in right direction.
First- the gas tank had bright orange gas/water in it, I changed it.
Second, the carb needed rebuilt, I paid mechanic to do it as I was busy. $250 and 3 days later it dies after going over little bump, took back to mechanic and "I broke distributor, rotor and cap"- a HEI distrib. they replaced for $500. since then I noticed some slight backfire on deceleration Well, 2 weeks later I'm cruising down A1A in Cocoa Beach 35 mph and it dies, was low on oil ( oil changed less than 2 weeks before). I sent it back to them and they said oil level would cause it to run that way & I had a couple leaks( I never noticed significant leakage). Choke wasn't running right either, they installed auto choke $100. A week later I'm down Indian River Drive 30 mph and same thing, it dies, low on oil too( If there is ever a place to break down in a jeep it is there, under shade trees overlooking the river)) Sent it back in and 'the distrib was bad', they "replaced" it (under warranty), but it still doesn't run.
They said the timing probably jumped and I need new timing chain, $500.
Now I know mechanics are in biz to make money, and thats ok but I already owe this place $1000 and need to man up and do this stuff myself( as I originally planned when I got the jeep) cause I'm going broke. So I researched here, got my jeep back, got the parts, disassembled everything except chain/sprockets and here I am...
1) Timing chain and sprockets "look" brand new. Solid metal- I know the original were plastic.
2) I didn't see an oil shredder/slinger when cover came off, is that behind sprockets or is it missing?
3) There is at least 1/2" chain slack on bottom side of sprocket assembly, top is good and tight
3) When sprockets are lined at "TDC"- (pointing at each other) distrib rotor is at 10-11 o'clock position. Rotor is near "1" cylinder( 5 oclock) when cam sprocket is around 10 o'clock
4) At 1 o'clock Cam and 3 o'clock crank there are 15 pins between them.

Sounds to me like the distrib is off. I'm wondering if I need to replace the chain/sprockets, is that slack excessive Guess I could since I have the parts... Needed to fix oil leaks anyways, I'm going to change the oil pan gasket in the mean time and check back for advice-
ANY INSIGHT WOULD BE APPRECIATED- THANKS!

 

[CJKrawler]

Welcome poppi, glad you are finding your way around. I'm not a mechanic, but I am sure one of the guys will chime in soon, but it sounds to me like you were partially being taken for a ride. remeber, these things are old, and the motors aren't manufactured anymore, which makes the parts expensive. One thing I didn't see, is all this stuff stock, or has there be upgrades done to the engine?

 

[poppi]

Not sure on upgrades other than HEI distrib., k&n air filter. As far as I know the carb is a carter 2bl remaned by holley. The stuff I've been buying is from ebay & craigs list( off existing jeeps), autozone, advance or carquest- aftermarket.

 

[Old Dog]

first thing I would do is get #1 cly. at the top of the compression stroke and see where the rotor is pointing, It should be just about to make contect with the #1 plug termanal. than see if the timing is on about 8* btdc.
A 1/2" slack in the chain seems like a lot to me, but I'm not a 6 cly. guy. There's quite a bit of info here about timing chains if you do a search.
And you really need to find a new mechanic, sounds like he's taking you for a ride.
Old cj's are easy to work on, break out the tools and save yourself a lot of money, you can use it for upgrades.

 

[CoreyYoungCj577]

You are in the EXACT same spot i am, except you shouldnt have taken the timing cover off and i wish you had posted before this, because what happened with mine was, one night it ran fine drove it around with my bud, the next day it fired and shook like a sonbitch, well i replaced the timing chain even though my timing chain was dead on and had about as much slack as yours, well i pulled the cap and my dizzy is pointing at the 6, 180 degree's off, so what your most likely gonna need to do is pull the dizzy to make sure the gear isnt stripped and if it isnt put in back pointing at the 1 spark plug but MAKE sure your timing marks on TDC pointing at each other.

 

[Old Dog]

LOL hey Cory, it was your thread I was thinking about when I told him to do a search.

 

[Cheepjeep85]

i'd replace em since you already got it apart. you are right they are not factory. factory was nylon gears. have you put a timing light on it and checked the timing yourself?

 

[poppi]

Cory's post was where I did all my research b4 I started. That gave me a clear understanding of the project thus far. I'll replace the sprockets & chain. Need to get an oil slinger too. Question, how & when do I determine if there's an 8* btdc or not? replace timing cover etc? When I looked in #1 and cranked til the sprocket marks were pointing at each other #1 was at top of stroke. Dizzy was pointing at #6 (just like Coreys), so I cranked it around til dizzy pointing at #1, looked at sprockets, Cam mark pointing exactly 180* from crank mark(crank back to same position) and at top of #1 again(exhaust stroke?). So we conclude that dizzy is backwards? Maybe dizzy did go bad and mechanic reinstalled the warranteed one wrong? I will remove it( any tips there?) and reinstall it. What do I do if gear is stripped in there?

 

[poppi]

No Cheepjeep, it was dead when I towed it to mechanic and I towed it back from there, so I haven't checked timing at all.

 

[poppi]

chain/sprockets replaced, I think the 'old' one was better, it was brand new, new one maybe 1/8" tighter. how should I lubricate the assembly?

 

[CoreyYoungCj577]

Just take a couple cap fulls of oil preferably what you use for the engine and put it on the chain or put some on your finger and rub it on there, Let me know if turning the dizzy 180 degrees works out for ya then i might go do mine and get an engine stand to put seals in my other engine

 

[poppi]

Ok Here's todays problem. I looked at chiltons book on distributor install. It says rotate engine til TDC, with plug out turn engine until I feel air forcefully exiting #1 plug hole. Did this and looked at Dizzy and it points at #1 but timing mark on cam is 180 off. I removed timing sprockets again in hopes to simply turn cam shaft 180*. It started to turn but I realized this may not be safe. Will I damage anything by doing this?

 

[IOPort51]

there is something here that just does not add.
did the shop change out the timing gear and chain??
how many times did you repeat the #1 cylinder thing to be sure you had the right stroke??

Ok Here's todays problem. I looked at chiltons book on distributor install. It says rotate engine til TDC, with plug out turn engine until I feel air forcefully exiting #1 plug hole. Did this and looked at Dizzy and it points at #1 but timing mark on cam is 180 off. I removed timing sprockets again in hopes to simply turn cam shaft 180*. It started to turn but I realized this may not be safe. Will I damage anything by doing this?

 

[poppi]

No the shop did not change sprocket. I got the jeep in june, the guy I got it from claims it had 12k on rebuilt engine. Im assuming chain was replaced then. I thought I was at the top, did it a few times- had new chain/sprockets on and everything lined up (except distributor 180* off) until I saw the chiltons instructions on air forcefully escaping. I cranked it around until air forced out and cam sprocket was now 180* off(dizzy right on). I removed chain, moved cam shaft maybe 40* and stopped. Had cold feet, moved it back & broke the pin holding cam sprocket. At this point I'm at a loss of what to do next.
Here's a summary of what I have so far:
*since Ive had it- new fuel tank, oil change, carb rebuild, new HEI dizzy
*Jeep ran "fine"(not too rough) then suddenly died. (low on oil too)
* week later- same thing, died/ low on oil
* Shop says timing issue, replaces dizzy(again), then cant get it running. Says it jumped time, & gave me estimate to replace timing chain
* I pick up jeep and attempt to change timing chain myself
* Dizzy cap was left off from shop. noticed wire harness at base of dizzy(goes to cap) was jammed against engine- possible exposed wire( need to pull dizzy next)
*I lined up timing marks on sprocket and saw #1 piston at top(through spark plug hole), dizzy 180* off(pointing to #6)
* No oil slinger on crank sprocket
* I replaced chain/sprockets, turned to the 1oclock(cam), and 3 oclock(crank) and count 15 pins. All good, I thought
* I then read chiltons advice to find TDC by turning until air forcefully comes out of #1 spark plug hole
* I did this and piston is at top, cam sprocket is 180* from where timing marks should line up, dizzy is pointing at #1
* I remove chain/sprockets and attempt to turn cam only 180*
* I turn it 40* or so, I get cold feet, doesn't seem right to turn cam without the crank, remember someone telling me I can bend valves.
* I turn cam back, replace sprockets/chain and break the pin that holds cam sprocket in time(I still have to turn it one tooth).
So now I wonder,
Where the heck is TDC?
at TDC something is 180* off, either the cam or dizzy.
Did the person who rebuilt the engine install cam sprocket 180* off, or did the shop install dizzy 180* off?I asked mechanic the other day and he said he put dizzy on #1 and it jumped time.
Will I ever get this thing running or have to pay the shop to do it(over and over again)?
I'm about to barter a killer paint job on it and need to get her running soon
Need my jeep, weather is getting nice and I'm tired of borrowing wife's car. AHHHHH!!!

 

[IOPort51]

I have a problem understanding how it ran at all with the cam off that far. I don't think it is capable of running at all the way it is, even poorly. some one had to change it between now and the last time it moved under it's own power.

What I would do.
find a new pin for the cam sprocket.
pull the valve covers and back the rocker bolts out, get all the pressure off the cam, I think this is what broke the pin.
line up the cam sprocket put things back together and return the new chain and sprocket to where you got it. check the dizzy position and start it.

 

[poppi]

Oil pan off, Ready to do rear seal while I'm in there... BUT- I looked up inspecting cam and noticed 1 1/2" metal shaving the dimensions of dental floss sticking out of where one of the cam bearings are. I pulled it out and it appears to be aluminum because it wont stick to magnet. I looked at another one and saw a small burred area sticking out. Am I in trouble here or what?

 

[dslywalker]

you might have spun a cam bearing.You'll have to pull the cam and look at it.

 

[Cheepjeep85]

ooh not good. i'm with dslywalker spun cam bearing. you need to pull the cam which will mean pulling the head to get the lifters out. while you are this far into it and you have the oil pan off i pull a rod cap and main cap to check for other bearing damage. you said it ran low on oil twice. what was the oil press. like the last time you had it running?