Best engine and transmission placement? Cj7 engine swap 4.3 v6

[tarry99]

Hey Bent, Thanks for your help. Would you suggest drilling additional holes to move the engine further forward or does it look good in the picture as it sits?
I off-set the engine toward the right side just as it was originally. The only issue Im running into with the exhaust is the brake proportion valve hits into the driverside pipe... (Ill try to include pics..Sorry if they are sideways) My front driveshaft runs on the passenger side of the vehicle unless the exhaust will get in the way.... I will include pics soon.
Thanks for the pointers..

76, I know your New at this and I applaud your drive to succeed ,

But as I have mentioned here before , you should "Never" drill holes or weld anything in place until all of the fitting for the motor , tranny , exhaust , drive lines etc. has taken place. This means from front to back and left to right........

Right now by locating your engine First , You have compromised all of the other components that also need space...........not to say that you may not be back to where you started at a later date, but without first taking these other components needs into account it will just make your job that much harder.

Swapping motors is all about compromise , in a world where a 1/4" will matter , you start by having the motor and Transmission hung in there via a hoist with jacks and blocking under it to get it level , then start adding things and making compromises.......

Change this or remove that , move this bracket over here.......Whatever

It may be your current exhaust manifolds have to be changed to a block hugger design to fit, it may be your engine needs to go fore or aft, I see you mentioned the proportion valve , if it's in the way move it, or an oil filter needs to be remote mounted , maybe a rear cross member needs to be moved .........the list is endless, but it can be done and as you move things around while visualizing and brainstorming for sometimes hours it will all finally start to come together where all the parts will best fit...........Don't box yourself in a corner , look at everything from start to finish so that you have a plan that can succeed.

And better pictures would surely be helpful.

 

[Hedgehog]

Leave it where it is for now. You haven't got all that much extra space there. Add a fan and you will be just right. As Tarry said don't be surprised to find you need to fine tune a little bit. But to be honest, I think you have your motor set right where it needs to be.

Now to glue down the Transfer Case mounts and you will be well on your way.

Don't leave out the fan shroud, its important to manage air flow through the radiator.

I've said it before, when I did my swap there was nobody to help and I did worry just the same as you are doing.

I find the motor mounts to be interesting in that they haven't changed since I put my V6 in way back in the late 1980's. Your adaptor company likely thought this one out long ago and that adds to my belief that you are in the right spot.

 

[Bent]

I would not drill new holes in the frame. Just weld the mounts when you like the location. It looks like it's a lot further forward than I had mine. So that's good. As far as tilting the engine back, you only need to tilt it back enough to match the pinion angle. Otherwise you will get some u joint noise.

 

[76cj7chick]

Thanks again everyone for your support and encouraging words. I just feel like I am losing steam and hope in this project. (Sorry for being so emo)

Anyone know what torque I an supposed to do on the Novak adapter Dana 20 case great nut. (I included a picture. Didn't get an instruction sheet for that part in the kit) Thanks again...

 

[76cj7chick]

76, I know your New at this and I applaud your drive to succeed ,

But as I have mentioned here before , you should "Never" drill holes or weld anything in place until all of the fitting for the motor , tranny , exhaust , drive lines etc. has taken place. This means from front to back and left to right........

Right now by locating your engine First , You have compromised all of the other components that also need space...........not to say that you may not be back to where you started at a later date, but without first taking these other components needs into account it will just make your job that much harder.

Swapping motors is all about compromise , in a world where a 1/4" will matter , you start by having the motor and Transmission hung in there via a hoist with jacks and blocking under it to get it level , then start adding things and making compromises.......

Change this or remove that , move this bracket over here.......Whatever

It may be your current exhaust manifolds have to be changed to a block hugger design to fit, it may be your engine needs to go fore or aft, I see you mentioned the proportion valve , if it's in the way move it, or an oil filter needs to be remote mounted , maybe a rear cross member needs to be moved .........the list is endless, but it can be done and as you move things around while visualizing and brainstorming for sometimes hours it will all finally start to come together where all the parts will best fit...........Don't box yourself in a corner , look at everything from start to finish so that you have a plan that can succeed.

And better pictures would surely be helpful.

Hi tarry99,
Thanks for the suggestions... I won't drill any holes. Thanks to you and several others stating not to at this point.

Now with moving the brake proportion valve, whats the best way to do so?

On the exhaust pipes, could you recommend a engine hugging brand? Also is it best to have the exhaust exit the driver side like stock or on the passenger side like the blazer? Only issue in the passenger side I see is that it may hit the driveshaft. And only issue on the driver side is that the fuel lines are on that side.
I am going to try to assemble the case and lift it up with the floor jack to see where it sits. The issue I find is that the crossmember mount seems to sit really high and then makes the rear driveshaft too steep. Would anyone know of an aftermarket case mount made specifically to hold up the Dana 20 while married to the Novak adapter. (I have the mount from Novak that holds up the adapter but have found it won't work as it sits too high/tall.

Thanks again for your help...

 

[76cj7chick]

Leave it where it is for now. You haven't got all that much extra space there. Add a fan and you will be just right. As Tarry said don't be surprised to find you need to fine tune a little bit. But to be honest, I think you have your motor set right where it needs to be.

Now to glue down the Transfer Case mounts and you will be well on your way.

Don't leave out the fan shroud, its important to manage air flow through the radiator.

I've said it before, when I did my swap there was nobody to help and I did worry just the same as you are doing.

I find the motor mounts to be interesting in that they haven't changed since I put my V6 in way back in the late 1980's. Your adaptor company likely thought this one out long ago and that adds to my belief that you are in the right spot.

Hello hedgehog,
I will take your advice and just let the engine sit where its at.

I'll move onto the tcase... would you know what torque the bolt for the (from Novak) Dana 20 gear nut should be? I posted a picture. If no one knows I can contact Novak.

I'm thinking I will have to buy or fabricate a shroud since the engine is off set to the driver side (earlier I said it was to the right but that is not so) the plastic shroud from the blazer won't fit.

I sure hope you're right about the mounts.

Thanks again for your guidance!!!!!

 

[76cj7chick]

I would not drill new holes in the frame. Just weld the mounts when you like the location. It looks like it's a lot further forward than I had mine. So that's good. As far as tilting the engine back, you only need to tilt it back enough to match the pinion angle. Otherwise you will get some u joint noise.

Hi there Bent! Thanks for sharing your suggestions.
I don't weld... but perhaps when they are in the right spot I can drive it somewhere that does.
Looks like the po who installed the (AMC 258 i6 / 4.2l with GM Turbo 400 ) made the angle unsafe and too sharp.. So I may look for another aftermarket cross member.
I've read that the TDK cross members were good. Almost had one but seller didn't want to deliver.
Well not without a huge fee.

Let me know if you have heard of a decent economical cross member that will hold up the Transfer Case and tranny.. perhaps with a removable skid plate. Thanks again!

 

[76cj7chick]

Here are some additional photos. Hope they are better.

Should I have the tcase or Transmission mounted on the cross member? I can push the cross member forward but will have to cut out a notch so the tranny pan doesn't hit the lip of the cross member.
OR---
I can mount the tcase on the crossmember but may need an aftermarket cross member as the one I have sits rather high.

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks again!!!!!

 

[76cj7chick]

Here are some additional photos.

For some reason a few of the pics uploaded upside down.. hope its not too confusing..

 

[Hedgehog]

Torque is generally set by the size of the bolts being used. Here's a table that should help:

Steel Bolt Torque Specifications Table - Engineer's Handbook

My experience has been that in a 4wd the rear mount is on the Transfer Case , not the Transmission . I don't think an aluminum automatic tranny would appreciate a big heavy cast iron Transfer Case hanging off the rear, I could be wrong though.

In the picture since my last post I see the fan has already been mounted. From these pictures it looks like you have a lot more room between the fan and the radiator than I originally thought.

If it were me I'd try to modify the stock cross member to fit your application. There is strength in the big relatively flat stock part. Frankly I'm leery of a member made of pipe. Pipe is very strong as long as it is nice and round, dent it and much of it's structural integrity is lost. As we all know, the center of our CJ's take a lot of pounding in off road situations.

Keep your chin up on the job, doldrums do happen, but the first time you are back in the CJ will make it all worth while. It's been said before, on the hard decisions, take a big breath, lock it down and move on. The pride in knowing that you did it largely yourself can't be denied.

 

[tarry99]

Hi tarry99,
Thanks for the suggestions... I won't drill any holes. Thanks to you and several others stating not to at this point.

Now with moving the brake proportion valve, whats the best way to do so?

On the exhaust pipes, could you recommend a engine hugging brand? Also is it best to have the exhaust exit the driver side like stock or on the passenger side like the blazer? Only issue in the passenger side I see is that it may hit the driveshaft. And only issue on the driver side is that the fuel lines are on that side.
I am going to try to assemble the case and lift it up with the floor jack to see where it sits. The issue I find is that the crossmember mount seems to sit really high and then makes the rear driveshaft too steep. Would anyone know of an aftermarket case mount made specifically to hold up the Dana 20 while married to the Novak adapter. (I have the mount from Novak that holds up the adapter but have found it won't work as it sits too high/tall.

Thanks again for your help...

76 .........I've done many of these before , some harder than others and with each one there is always new challenges and something to learn, It's always nice to keep the old brain engaged.

Think out of the box.......anything that is easily movable is fair game to be moved in a engine swap like yours.........As far as brake lines and your proportioning valve just act like there not there or remove them for now,Yes you'll have to cut into the brake line system and probably re-route those lines again , but no big deal...........Don't get hung up on where some things may now be.....look beyond that and if they have to go or be modified so be it.

Google Block Hugger headers for your motor type, Jegs or Summit will have something. Exhaust has to go where it has to go..........no side is better than the other.......more than likely your Jeep will end up in a muffler shop anyway that will custom bend the exit pipes to fit. If fuel lines have to be re-routed so be it.........and don't think that your going to find a rear mount that will fit your needs on someones shelf.......

What I keep hearing from you is that the mounts are to high or to low........and things are in your way or the drive line angle looks to steep.

One more time.......The correct placement of the motor and Transmission is where it needs to go.........period. The angle of the tranny pan has to be flat to the roadbed. Everything else from there has to be built to fit around that location......if your lucky enough to find mounts that might fit so be it.......but it must start with the motor in the correct location at the correct angle for the tranny pan to be flat........anything short of that and your project is going in the wrong direction........that's why I keep saying you may have to take a step back before you move forward again and if that means moving your front mounts then so be it.

No one can see your project or what's in the way better than you. The pictures that you have posted , most of which are upside down are just pictures that offer little help........so taking random advice for placement of anything is at best just a guess.........These swaps are all about putting a round peg in a square hole , while at the same time , making it look like it belonged there.

You'll get it. Keep up the good work!

 

[76cj7chick]

Torque is generally set by the size of the bolts being used. Here's a table that should help:

Steel Bolt Torque Specifications Table - Engineer's Handbook

My experience has been that in a 4wd the rear mount is on the Transfer Case , not the Transmission . I don't think an aluminum automatic tranny would appreciate a big heavy cast iron Transfer Case hanging off the rear, I could be wrong though.

In the picture since my last post I see the fan has already been mounted. From these pictures it looks like you have a lot more room between the fan and the radiator than I originally thought.

If it were me I'd try to modify the stock cross member to fit your application. There is strength in the big relatively flat stock part. Frankly I'm leery of a member made of pipe. Pipe is very strong as long as it is nice and round, dent it and much of it's structural integrity is lost. As we all know, the center of our CJ's take a lot of pounding in off road situations.

Keep your chin up on the job, doldrums do happen, but the first time you are back in the CJ will make it all worth while. It's been said before, on the hard decisions, take a big breath, lock it down and move on. The pride in knowing that you did it largely yourself can't be denied.

Hey Hedgehog, Thanks for the bolt torque table.

I know the original mount was on the t case... but once I sold the GM Turbo 400 (the other tranny) it too went with it as it was intergrated into the adapter case. And like you said the heavy cast iron case should have the mount instead of the aluminum tranny.. I do have a mount that I got from Novak but I believe it is for the (alluminum) adapter.. I will match them up today ( now that I have a better idea of the torque on the bolt) and see if I can have their mount work on the tcase...

I had the fan on the previous pic but it was dark so I put an extra light on it before taking the picture.


Thanks for the encouraging words...

I took a couple days of rest from the project to see if "standing" back from lit will clear up the "cobwebs" in my head..

Thanks again for the help! Wouldn't be able to go forward without help from awesome people on this forum!

 

[76cj7chick]

76 .........I've done many of these before , some harder than others and with each one there is always new challenges and something to learn, It's always nice to keep the old brain engaged.

Think out of the box.......anything that is easily movable is fair game to be moved in a engine swap like yours.........As far as brake lines and your proportioning valve just act like there not there or remove them for now,Yes you'll have to cut into the brake line system and probably re-route those lines again , but no big deal...........Don't get hung up on where some things may now be.....look beyond that and if they have to go or be modified so be it.

Google Block Hugger headers for your motor type, Jegs or Summit will have something. Exhaust has to go where it has to go..........no side is better than the other.......more than likely your Jeep will end up in a muffler shop anyway that will custom bend the exit pipes to fit. If fuel lines have to be re-routed so be it.........and don't think that your going to find a rear mount that will fit your needs on someones shelf.......

What I keep hearing from you is that the mounts are to high or to low........and things are in your way or the drive line angle looks to steep.

One more time.......The correct placement of the motor and Transmission is where it needs to go.........period. The angle of the tranny pan has to be flat to the roadbed. Everything else from there has to be built to fit around that location......if your lucky enough to find mounts that might fit so be it.......but it must start with the motor in the correct location at the correct angle for the tranny pan to be flat........anything short of that and your project is going in the wrong direction........that's why I keep saying you may have to take a step back before you move forward again and if that means moving your front mounts then so be it.

No one can see your project or what's in the way better than you. The pictures that you have posted , most of which are upside down are just pictures that offer little help........so taking random advice for placement of anything is at best just a guess.........These swaps are all about putting a round peg in a square hole , while at the same time , making it look like it belonged there.

You'll get it. Keep up the good work!

Hi Tarry99!

You say moving the brake proportioning valve and brake line is easy because you have done this I have never done it silly bean.. --but I know it is easy to veteran builders.

I did a search of the block huggers unfortunately most of them cost more than my blazer I bought for the swap.

I am starting to realize that these kind of swaps are only easy to the veterans swappers... Or smarty pants people...

Looks like I will have to see if Novak's Mount can be used (modified or not) to hold the tcase.

Thanks for walking me through this experience.

 

[tarry99]

Hi Tarry99!

You say moving the brake proportioning valve and brake line is easy because you have done this I have never done it silly bean.. --but I know it is easy to veteran builders.

I did a search of the block huggers unfortunately most of them cost more than my blazer I bought for the swap.

I am starting to realize that these kind of swaps are only easy to the veterans swappers... Or smarty pants people...

Looks like I will have to see if Novak's Mount can be used (modified or not) to hold the tcase.

Thanks for walking me through this experience.

76..........Thanks for being a Good Sport and not taking anything I have said Personally........as I mentioned , I applaud your energy and perseverance and want to see you succeed.

Yes , engine swaps are sometimes difficult and for the Novice sometimes extremely hard.........don't give up , we all learn by doing........Your right I do have a leg up on the subject of experience and do have a complete shop here that supports my Drag Racing.

Myself and I'm sure others here want to help you if we can. But you must understand you have the best seat & view in the House so you are the Point Person on this Project, so any suggestions should be considered just that and only that.

Try to get your picture taking under control........First they need to be posted in the proper upright position. Open up the view a little so your taking a larger photo whereby there is some reference to other components in the picture and then if needed a closeup of the area that's in question............. One subject per post per day, It is much easier to dissect one thing at a time rather than several. Explain as best you can what's in your way and what you need to accomplish , remember we only see and read what you show and tell us........As I mentioned just about anything is fair game to be moved or modified.........

First things first.........the motor needs to be in the proper position statically. That means High or Low & Left or Right.......and at the proper angle. When I said installing the front mounts was not a good Idea.........It really was the worst mistake you could have made as it sets a precedence for whatever else follows............case in point: (I have my own CJ6 here on my chassis fixture , over the past several months the motor and tranny have been moved several times......not by much but just the same moved and it will not be mounted until it's almost finished)

You need to look and see what's in your way and then visualize how you can best help meditate that obstacle by either moving the motor and or another components that get in your way, each step has to be treated separately , like a big puzzle.

I sometimes make a list, or just mentally check the obstacle off in my mind that I can move it without issue. On the close fit's your almost forced to make the move before preceding.

Exhaust, brake & fuel lines , wires , linkage and even some of the steering components can all be moved and don't pose a big problem or at least for me it does not........Things like drive shafts and there needed working angles torque arms or suspension link points and some steering are all things that can't be moved easily and require there own space.

Not hard just takes time and a clear vision.

Do you have a person near you that can machine parts?
How are you with taking measurements and making drawings?

Good Luck!

 

[76cj7chick]

Sweet .... If your original driveshaft is stock, no brainer, keep it stock length. If it was good enough for AMC it's good enough for you. Also if the driveshaft is in good working condition it will save you an lot of money in the end. There will be some elevation difference between the front and the back of your propeller. Again, if you set the output shaft at the same height and side to side location as it was stock you are good to go. I've heard that a perfectly straight driveline is not desirable. Also, level is a relative thing in a vehicle. Exactly when is it level? When it's unloaded ... when it's got a load in it ..... and exactly when are you NOT going either up hill or down hill. No you probably don't want your drivetrain pointing too far up in the air or I suppose down. In a vehicle close really does count. As I wrote above, center your fan in the shroud and set the output shaft at factory height and you will or should be good to go. Follow that advice and most of your decisions are already made. When I set my Buick 231 v6 that is what I ended up doing and it worked great until having my first child forced me to sell. Until then I worried just the same way you are doing right now. If you have a bunch of holes in your cross member, weld'em closed and grind'em smooth then paint, nobody will know they were there.

Hey Hedgehog, thanks again for the support. I have been busy doing other mods to the cj but hope to get back to the drive train soon.
And although I don't weld, perhaps I can give it a try again.
It may take a few more weeks or so before I can go forward with this part of the project as I would like to re-read this thread and continue with my research. I DO appreciate everyone's advice!!!!

 

[Hedgehog]

That was a little bit of an old post. As the conversation kept moving along fairly rapidly. I was under the impression that you'd settled on the engine location. If I were you, and after looking at your motor mounts, I was where you are now, If could help it, I wouldn't weld the mounts to the frame. I would add some metal to the frame mount to make sure I could use the existing motor mount holes already in the frame. Welding on a frame can be tricky business, I'd stay away from doing it.

If you want to try welding, definitely get a MIG, house current machines are easiest and do an art project or two. MIG welding is the easiest to learn on. A stick welder can quickly destroy your enthusiasm.

 

[76cj7chick]

That was a little bit of an old post. As the conversation kept moving along fairly rapidly. I was under the impression that you'd settled on the engine location. If I were you, and after looking at your motor mounts, I was where you are now, If could help it, I wouldn't weld the mounts to the frame. I would add some metal to the frame mount to make sure I could use the existing motor mount holes already in the frame. Welding on a frame can be tricky business, I'd stay away from doing it.

If you want to try welding, definitely get a MIG, house current machines are easiest and do an art project or two. MIG welding is the easiest to learn on. A stick welder can quickly destroy your enthusiasm.

Hey hedgehog!
Looks like I do have the motor and mounts where they appear to work. I won't have them welded yet until everything is in.


Any suggestions on a good aftermarket cross member for both the case and tranny? I would love to have a removable skid plate too. If not, any ideas on how much a welding shop may charge to measure and weld up one for me?

Thanks for your guidance!

 

[Hedgehog]

Honestly I'm terrible at this sort of question. Much like you I'm stuck on using my own skills to get a job done. Unfortunately being my age I've accumulated a bunch of skills that are generally useless for making money, but perfect for working on my CJ. .. I.E. a skid plate/cross member is needed, after some head scratching a cross member is built. Also, always keep this in mind, you have altered your CJ. Most aftermarket parts made for your CJ won't fit with out some fiddling (bending, cutting, drilling and yes, welding). So, I honestly have no idea how much it might cost to have a professional welder work up a skid plate.


You don't actually need to weld your motor mounts in place. The pictures you showed had the mounts bolted nicely to the frame. Ain't nothin' wrong with those bolts. Leave'em where they are and move on to the next problem.

 

[76cj7chick]

Honestly I'm terrible at this sort of question. Much like you I'm stuck on using my own skills to get a job done. Unfortunately being my age I've accumulated a bunch of skills that are generally useless for making money, but perfect for working on my CJ. .. I.E. a skid plate/cross member is needed, after some head scratching a cross member is built. Also, always keep this in mind, you have altered your CJ. Most aftermarket parts made for your CJ won't fit with out some fiddling (bending, cutting, drilling and yes, welding). So, I honestly have no idea how much it might cost to have a professional welder work up a skid plate.


You don't actually need to weld your motor mounts in place. The pictures you showed had the mounts bolted nicely to the frame. Ain't nothin' wrong with those bolts. Leave'em where they are and move on to the next problem.

I guess I should start calling around to welders for prices to fan me a cross member and skid plate.