Problems with ???

[diver49]

Problems with Jeep not running

I have a 1985 CJ7 I6 3 years in to resto. I did a engine over haul, Nutter By pass, Team rush and upgraded to mc2100 carb. I also removed the computer under the glove box and all the wiring.The problem it starts fine idle fine BUT when I give it some gas say up to 1800 RPMs it falls on its face and sometimes backfires thur the carb. BUT if I leave the vacuum unhooked from the dist. I can run the RPMs on up. I have replaced the disturbutor, checked the timing again and again even took the timing cover off and verified my timing set was on right. I have replaced the power valve checked the flot leavel. With the idle adjustment screws set 2 to 1 1/2 turns out it is lean and will get hot idleing. COULD I have some kind of elec. problem like the control module, the wiring for the nutter bypass. plugs???? One other note I believe I put Bosch plugs in I did read that could be bad. All team rush parts came from NAPA.

 

[CJ]

Re: Problems with Jeep not running

Hello diver49 and welcome to the site.

The first thing that jumped out at me was the vacuum advance was stuck but you stated you replaced the dist.

Are you 100% sure your not off a tooth in your dist install? I know the timing looks good with a light but it was just something I have seen before.

As for could it be something in the electronics concerning the TeamRush install? I'm not sure but we actually have TeamRush as a member here. I'll make sure he see this thread!

 

[TeamRush]

I can tell you what it is, but you are NOT going to like it!

The 'Nutter' took the timing computer out of the loop.
That loop included your distributor trigger being 'Advanced' for the rotor...

The 'Computer' worked on a 'Delay'...
The more 'Delay', the more control your computer had over the timing.

Now that you have taken the computer out of the loop,
When your distributor gets to full advance, the rotor is trying to fire the wrong spark plug...

The problme is 'ROTOR PHASING', and it's EASY to solve if you make the test cap I'm about to show you...

You can confirm this by taking a cheap aluminum terminal distributor cap, and cutting a hole in it right between the #1 terminal and the coil wire terminal...

I'm aware this is a V-8 cap, but the principal is the same...
........................

In this case, I even striped the 'Test Rotor' so I could better see the centerline of the rotor with the test light...

.......................

Now, you want to watch your rotor with a timing light as you climb up in the RPM range...

See if the rotor sweeps from one side of the #1 terminal to the other as the vacuum advance comes 'IN',
or if the rotor starts out on one side, and just keeps moving away as I suspect it will...

Correct 'Sweep' as vacuum advance comes 'IN' and goes 'Out'....

---------------------------------------

INCORRECT 'SWEEP' of the rotor as Vacuum Comes 'In' and goes 'OUT'...
It will start on one side of the #1 terminal, and just keep moving away...
Mark the starting and stopping points so you know how much to adjust the RELUCTOR so it works correctly for you and well move to the next step...

 

[diver49]

Got the hole cut in the dist. after looking at the rotor with my timing light at idle my rotor is between #1 and #4 closer to #4. If I rev. the engine and vacuum advance comes in it jumps to the other side of #1

 

[TeamRush]

Got the hole cut in the dist. after looking at the rotor with my timing light at idle my rotor is between #1 and #4 closer to #4. If I rev. the engine and vacuum advance comes in it jumps to the other side of #1

Something that crossed my mind while I was Re-Reading this thread...

Did you adjust the accelerator pump on the carb?
Is the backfiring a fuel issue you haven't addressed?

2 to 1.5 turns out on the idle mixture screws is pretty severe!
It should be closer to 1/2 to 3/4 turn at most on the screws.
And the screws should ALWAYS be the same number of turns out!

How much INITIAL ADVANCE are you running?

Are you running the vacuum line for the distributor from SPARK PORTED VACUUM like it's supposed to be,
Or are you running base plate or manifold vacuum to the distributor?
---------------------------------------

Anyway, back to rotor phasing, (which never hurts anything)

Try using a vacuum pump on the line (or getting clean line and sucking on the line to the vacuum advance).
You want to FULLY engage the vacuum advance.

Anyway, you want to have the rotor start out on one side of the #1 terminal, and end up on the OTHER side of the #1 terminal...

And, you want your #1 terminal to be in the middle of the 'Sweep' if possible...
----------------------------------

So, if you start out closer to #4, then you need to adjust your RELUCTOR on the distributor.

It's that 'Wagon Wheel' looking thing just under the ROTOR in your distributor.

1. MARK THE RELUCTOR ROLL PIN LOCATION!
I know this is a picture of a V-8 distributor, but the reluctor roll pin slot looks the same on the I-6 engines.

--------------------------------------------

2. Pull the reluctor directly UP off the advance head stem.
Take care not to loose that little roll pin in that slot!

---------------------------------------------

3. With the reluctor removed, the distributor is going to look something like this,

----------------------------------------------

Now, you are going to have to figure out how many 'Degrees' off 'Optimum' for the SWEEP the rotor was...

The 'Easy' way is to mark the cap where you see the reluctor the farthest away from #1 you see the rotor while it's running,
Then mark the cap again where you see the rotor on the 'Other' side of the #1 terminal...

Then take that measurement between the two marks, and center it over the #1 terminal...

The amount you will need to move the reluctor on the shaft is the difference where the 'Right' side (closest to #4) marks.
The two 'Right Side' marks is the angle you need to move the reluctor...
----------------------------------------

I'm working on some diagrams to make this easier, so bear with me on this!

 

[CJ]

Thank you for the great images and explanations! I'm sure this thread will be useful for anyone who has this problem.

 

[diver49]

I can tell you what it is, but you are NOT going to like it!

The 'Nutter' took the timing computer out of the loop.
That loop included your distributor trigger being 'Advanced' for the rotor...

The 'Computer' worked on a 'Delay'...
The more 'Delay', the more control your computer had over the timing.

Now that you have taken the computer out of the loop,
When your distributor gets to full advance, the rotor is trying to fire the wrong spark plug...

The problme is 'ROTOR PHASING', and it's EASY to solve if you make the test cap I'm about to show you...

You can confirm this by taking a cheap aluminum terminal distributor cap, and cutting a hole in it right between the #1 terminal and the coil wire terminal...

I'm aware this is a V-8 cap, but the principal is the same...
........................

In this case, I even striped the 'Test Rotor' so I could better see the centerline of the rotor with the test light...

.......................

Now, you want to watch your rotor with a timing light as you climb up in the RPM range...

See if the rotor sweeps from one side of the #1 terminal to the other as the vacuum advance comes 'IN',
or if the rotor starts out on one side, and just keeps moving away as I suspect it will...

Correct 'Sweep' as vacuum advance comes 'IN' and goes 'Out'....

---------------------------------------

INCORRECT 'SWEEP' of the rotor as Vacuum Comes 'In' and goes 'OUT'...
It will start on one side of the #1 terminal, and just keep moving away...
Mark the starting and stopping points so you know how much to adjust the RELUCTOR so it works correctly for you and well move to the next step...

I did this Friday and it made all the difference in the world. This is how mine is working when idleing it stays on #1. With vacuum advance hooked up and rev. the engine it moves a little toward #4. Initial timing is set at 8. I havent drove it let but says like it will scratch the tires. At first thought I went the wrong way because full advance was counterclock wise. Does all of this seem right?

 

[dalefan88]

cj when teamrush does something like this with pics and everything can you make it a sticky. he has good pics and explanations of everything that could help newbies and people who wrench all the time but dont know all the info. just a idea.

 

[CJ]

cj when teamrush does something like this with pics and everything can you make it a sticky. he has good pics and explanations of everything that could help newbies and people who wrench all the time but dont know all the info. just a idea.

I would rather not sticky every good thread but I did add a 'Notable Posts' thread (stickied), anyone can add to it as needed... -->> http://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/notable-posts-1087/

 

[dalefan88]

sweet. i never new you could faze a rotor. learnt me something new today. lol

 

[diver49]

Drove my Jeep after three years of restoring and upgrading. It ran smooth thanks for the info on rotor phasing I have chased this problem for at least 4 months. I have read on some of the other forums they dont believe in phasing I'am a true believer. The good part if it is a problem that you have its a easy fix. My question is it something to do with the team rush or the nutter upgrade or pulling the computer out?

 

[CJ]

The 'Nutter' took the timing computer out of the loop.
That loop included your distributor trigger being 'Advanced' for the rotor...

The 'Computer' worked on a 'Delay'...
The more 'Delay', the more control your computer had over the timing.

Now that you have taken the computer out of the loop,
When your distributor gets to full advance, the rotor is trying to fire the wrong spark plug...

Looks like TeamRush says that doing the 'Nutter' and taking the computer out of the system causes the problems. At least it's a know issue and can be resolved.

Glad to hear your cruising along in style again!

 

[spacer]

this was a great information. thanks guys for this.

 

[TeamRush]

Drove my Jeep after three years of restoring and upgrading. It ran smooth thanks for the info on rotor phasing I have chased this problem for at least 4 months.
I have read on some of the other forums they dont believe in phasing I'am a true believer.
The good part if it is a problem that you have its a easy fix.
My question is it something to do with the team rush or the nutter upgrade or pulling the computer out?

There are still people that believe the earth is flat...

Rotor phasing is simply getting the trigger lined up so the rotor nose 'Sweeps' from one side of your plug wire terminal to the other.
No big deal, and not hard to comprehend if you have an open mind.

If it wasn't an issue, would places like MSD, Malloy, ect. address it as a real problem that needs to be fixed?
http://www.msdignition.com/instruct...ulletin_rotor_phasing.pdf?terms=rotor+phasing

OR make products that correct the problem in NO ADJUSTABLE distributors?
--------------------------------------

Anyway, doing the 'Nutter Bypass' is entirely up to you.
Personally, I can take it or leave it.

Getting the ignition, computer, Carter BBD working together and you have a fairly good system with the computer doing it's job.

If you change any one of the three, then you will need to address all three.

Properly doing the 'Nutter Bypass' means adjusting the needles in the Carter BBD, bypassing some ignition components, and checking for other problems that defeating the compute entails...

So the 'Nutter Bypass', PROPERLY DONE, is a lot more work than most people let on!
Getting the computer system, carb and ignition working together again can be a real pain also, so it's up to you and your skill level...

 

[CJ7 Ponie]

Im just reading through and learned some new facts about phasing the rotor,thank you,I was thinking of source vacuum too. I know of the manifold and venturie vac but was unaware of the "spark ported vacuum.

 

[1986cj7]

There are still people that believe the earth is flat...

Rotor phasing is simply getting the trigger lined up so the rotor nose 'Sweeps' from one side of your plug wire terminal to the other.
No big deal, and not hard to comprehend if you have an open mind.

If it wasn't an issue, would places like MSD, Malloy, ect. address it as a real problem that needs to be fixed?
http://www.msdignition.com/instruct...ulletin_rotor_phasing.pdf?terms=rotor+phasing

OR make products that correct the problem in NO ADJUSTABLE distributors?
--------------------------------------

Anyway, doing the 'Nutter Bypass' is entirely up to you.
Personally, I can take it or leave it.

Getting the ignition, computer, Carter BBD working together and you have a fairly good system with the computer doing it's job.

If you change any one of the three, then you will need to address all three.

Properly doing the 'Nutter Bypass' means adjusting the needles in the Carter BBD, bypassing some ignition components, and checking for other problems that defeating the compute entails...

So the 'Nutter Bypass', PROPERLY DONE, is a lot more work than most people let on!
Getting the computer system, carb and ignition working together again can be a real pain also, so it's up to you and your skill level...

I have a bbd carter without the computer and emissions junk on it. Now I've been messing with my timing and now have it at 8 btdc at 700 rpm at idle. The idle mixure screws are at 2 turns out. And seems to be running great even on the highway turning 2800 rpms. Now I've read this thread and you sugjest 1/2 to 3/4 on the idle screws now that was on a 2100 or motorcraft not sure what. But what would be a good starting point for a bbd.

 

[1986cj7]

I've been adjusting this carberator and found that the choke spring tab in the housing of the spring wasn't even connected. Now how do I get the right spring tention on the choke spring. Where do I start tenstioning the spring. I've now got the idle screws at one turn and it runs even better. With winter coming I want to get the choke and everything working together. It always ran rough in winter till it warmed up. Any help or coments will be appreciated!!!!!!!!!

 

[1986cj7]

I've been adjusting this carberator and found that the choke spring tab in the housing of the spring wasn't even connected. Now how do I get the right spring tention on the choke spring. Where do I start tenstioning the spring. I've now got the idle screws at one turn and it runs even better. With winter coming I want to get the choke and everything working together. It always ran rough in winter till it warmed up. Any help or coments will be appreciated!!!!!!!!!

I now have the choke cover knotch at 2 rich and will see how it starts when it gets cold it starts good know with just one pump of the gas. sorry for the bad post

 

[JeepBrah]

sweet. i never new you could faze a rotor. learnt me something new today. lol

Same here. Haha.

 

[Gsmithl10]

Hey guys thanks for the info... I've done the nutter as well as the weber upgrade and its worked well so far but now I know I need to upgrade the Ignition. Whats the Team Rush? Is that just a HEI dist.