Are these used axles beyond recovery?

[tarry99]

I rarely argue with you Tarry , but from 2.73 to 3.73 is a substantial jump. Your gonna feel that easily. I think 4.10 is the right gearing for 33s but axle replacement is alot easier than buying the tools and having the knowledge to set up your regear. 3.73 isnt a bad ratio for 33s.

The second point is that your not agreeing with Lumpy. He wants nothing to do with the AMC20 . The OP has a chance to get a set of axles with 3.73 gearing and the rear is a Dana 44 . Its a better packge with the right carriers already. Will he want to go up in tire size later? Will hewant ultra low gears for rock crawling? That Im not sure on. Im sure he'll let us know before blood is spilled though.

Pete ..........I didn't not know we were arguing? But we can if you like!

Re-read LG's post he clearly states ...."Use your axles and build from there. Moser 1 piece axles are a MUST have! You'll need 2, LSD carriers, 2 R&P's with install kits."

I don't see where buying someone else's junk that more than likely will require more parts & cost's just to bring it up to Speed is a great choice!

The difference in crawl ratio's between the 2.73 (28.83:1) and the 3.73 (39.38:1 ) is 11 points, in either case , hardly anything to write home about.........

But the real crust of my points were centered around telling this guy to figure out "First" what is he trying to accomplish?..........that in itself will tell everyone which way is the best approach!

 

[Lumpy Grits]

BTW; has anyone here ran 33s with a T-5 and 4:56 gears? I have-they are a great choice for all around DD to trail use.
I only went to 4:88 because I put a 44 in front at the same time I put the Currie 9" in. LOVE THOSE 4:88s
The OP must decide what HE wants!
This will cost, no matter what is done-Best to buy and cry once!!
Respectfully,
LG

P.S. I have been run'n my '7' w/4:88's for over 22+ years. Yeah-I'm that happy with it and run the f'way all the time--

 

[Petescj]

OH-PLEASE, I have lost count of how many I have seen with moved center sections and bowed tubes.
They were 'built' by the AMC 'bean-counters'.
The 20 had no place on the CJ!
This I say, as someone who has worked on them(replaced mine w/9")for friends and club members for over 29 years.
Rearend shops love'em for the $$$ they generate for them.
LG

We went from this ^

I've been doing R&P work for 40+ years.
Cry once and don't settle-The gear ratio setup I told you about will go along way to letting your T-5 , live along life.
Use your axles and build from there. Moser 1 piece axles are a MUST have! You'll need 2, LSD carriers, 2 R&P's with install kits.
NEVER go the cheap here-You NEVER save a dime when you do.
LG

to this ^. Sorry if I get confused.

BTW; has anyone here ran 33s with a T-5 and 4:56 gears? I have-they are a great choice for all around DD to trail use.
I only went to 4:88 because I put a 44 in front at the same time I put the Currie 9" in. LOVE THOSE 4:88s
The OP must decide what HE wants!
This will cost, no matter what is done-Best to buy and cry once!!
Respectfully,
LG

P.S. I have been run'n my '7' w/4:88's for over 22+ years. Yeah-I'm that happy with it and run the f'way all the time--

Id like to hear what he wants out of his Cj.

 

[Old Dog]

I'll stay out of the gear ratio thing till the OP tells us what his plans are.
I have to agree though that when buying used axles, I always spend more money rebuilding them than I do on the axle itself. I refuse to go through all the trouble of changing the axle without at least putting new bearing, seals, and brakes in it. I really don't want to tear it apart right after putting it in.

 

[hagar]

I would buy the 44 and overhaul it. New bearings for it and the axle bearings and seals; maybe the brakes as well.
Gotta have a starting point somewhere for your own knowledge and reliability purposes.
Under those circumstances, buying a used axle to obtain a better replacement axle makes sense to me. I've done it myself.

I will say the price seems to high, at least for my area.

For the 30, rebuild what you have. Simple, replace the carrier and R-P with 3.73. Easy to find.

And all this talk about the AMC20 being junk is just the same old talk, over and over and over.
The main failures are folks that don't under stand them and don't maintain them properly.
Granted, the Jeeps are older now and who knows how many bubbas have worked on the rig before you take possession of it and it's problems.

Over the years, I've not run into many owners who drop the dime for the proper hub puller, 1" drive axle nut socket and the longest 1" drive breaker bar they can find.
And correct me if I'm wrong: Doesn't the manual state that the rear hub should be replaced any time it's removed from the axle? ( I don't have a manual to verify that, just my old memory.)

So, in closing, I believe the problems relating to the 20 are owners who don't follow the proper procedures, don't torque the nuts to factory specs or measurements (and periodically re-check them), re-use old components over and over, and just plain abuse.

And.....this forum and so many others are FULL of one piece axle bearing and seal failures that I really fail to see why you would want to change?

If the 20 is so bad and so hated, why do folks transplant new axles with bearing and seal problems?

I guess because new, quality, factory 2 piece components may be hard to source?
or they don't have the proper tools...

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Petescj
Learned to set gears and read patterns in HS when I worked for Hot Rod City in Torrance, Ca. The owners son and I were best of friends. Tony Capanna was my teacher--GOOGLE for history of HRC.
Started set'n up R&Ps for others in late 1973.
Start'd deal'n with the '20' in 1985 when I bought my '7'.
Clear now
LG

 

[Petescj]

This is definately going to be an opinion/argument thread. I would just like to remind everyone involved to be respectful to the other posters in this thread.


That said carry on your opinions/arguments. We live in America , and your allowed to express yourself.

:us:

 

[Petescj]

Petescj
Learned to set gears and read patterns in HS when I worked for Hot Rod City in Torrance, Ca. The owners son and I were best of friends. Tony Capanna was my teacher--GOOGLE for history of HRC.
Started set'n up R&Ps for others in late 1973.
Start'd deal'n with the '20' in 1985 when I bought my '7'.
Clear now
LG

The 2 posts I pointed out showed some contradiction. You hated the AMC20 . Then you told him to build it. When I need to Google I will.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

I would buy the 44 and overhaul it. New bearings for it and the axle bearings and seals; maybe the brakes as well.
Gotta have a starting point somewhere for your own knowledge and reliability purposes.
Under those circumstances, buying a used axle to obtain a better replacement axle makes sense to me. I've done it myself.

I will say the price seems to high, at least for my area.

For the 30, rebuild what you have. Simple, replace the carrier and R-P with 3.73. Easy to find.

And all this talk about the AMC20 being junk is just the same old talk, over and over and over.
The main failures are folks that don't under stand them and don't maintain them properly.
Granted, the Jeeps are older now and who knows how many bubbas have worked on the rig before you take possession of it and it's problems.

Over the years, I've not run into many owners who drop the dime for the proper hub puller, 1" drive axle nut socket and the longest 1" drive breaker bar they can find.
And correct me if I'm wrong: Doesn't the manual state that the rear hub should be replaced any time it's removed from the axle? ( I don't have a manual to verify that, just my old memory.)

So, in closing, I believe the problems relating to the 20 are owners who don't follow the proper procedures, don't torque the nuts to factory specs or measurements (and periodically re-check them), re-use old components over and over, and just plain abuse.

And.....this forum and so many others are FULL of one piece axle bearing and seal failures that I really fail to see why you would want to change?

If the 20 is so bad and so hated, why do folks transplant new axles with bearing and seal problems?

I guess because new, quality, factory 2 piece components may be hard to source?
or they don't have the proper tools...

Of those bearing fails you speak of-How many were the set-9 bearings used by Moser? The other 1 piece axle makers out there I wouldn't give 1 spit for.
You have NOT seen the number of spun axle/hubs I have then, with that POS idea of 2-piece axles.
I have lost count of how many bowed 20 housing's I have seen because of the thin axle tubes used. OH-lets not for get the rotated 'pumpkin' because the tubes were only pressed in.
Yeah-More lipstick for this turd rear axle.
The axle had the splines that were supposed to be transferred to the hub. FSM sez you can replace a new hub on an axle(IF it ain't 'spun'). But, a new axle needs a new hub.
Have you ever rebuilt a 20 rear? The only way to remove the hub on a spun axle is to cut the hub off. This must be done so you can reuse the brake backing plate.
The hub-puller will only work, IF the hub and axle are NOT welded together from be'n 'spun'.
LG

 

[Lumpy Grits]

The 2 posts I pointed out showed some contradiction. You hated the AMC20 . Then you told him to build it. When I need to Google I will.

I said for him to build it, after the OP sez he's as por as I am.
Also build his-Not someone elses junk, if the OP's housings are sound and straight.
Valid point about the contradiction.
LG

 

[Petescj]

Its all good. And the junk he was going to buy was a rear Dana 44 . The condition is definatley a factor to be considered.


My whole thought is he's upgraiding from the AMC20 with 2.73s. Thats getting traded out for a Dana 44 with 3.73s WIN!

Then he gets a front Dana 30 with matching gears. WIN! Get some new axle Ubolts and be happy.

I said for him to build it, after the OP sez he's as por as I am.
Also build his-Not someone elses junk, if the OP's housings are sound and straight.
Valid point about the contradiction.
LG

 

[Lumpy Grits]

No worries-
I just don't want the OP to have a case of the "should-a-haves".
Wish he was closer-I'd do the gear set-up work for him, N/C.
LG

 

[Petescj]

Seeing this I wish you were closer as well.

No worries-
I just don't want the OP to have a case of the "should-a-haves".
Wish he was closer-I'd do the gear set-up work for him, N/C.
LG

 

[Flex BT]

Wow! Awesome to come home to so many replies, thanks all.

This thread is a product of my own indecisiveness and a bit of shyness towards both trying my hand at R&P swap (albeit with an experienced neighbor) somewhat equaled to my reluctance to part with my cash for used axles that are in worse shape than mine asthetically, but with much better -not perfect- gear #s.

My primary use for the jeep is road use / daily driver / commuting. I do like taking it off road, doing some light trail riding a few times a year and driving it in the snow. Once I can get it really sorted out in good shape I'd like to be able to consider doing some more serious off roading but nothing like a dedicated crawler or anything.

I got the jeep because I've always wanted one and I really wanted to improve my mechanic abilities. I have had that opportunity in spades. The jeep has a great big suspension lift, 33" tires, and appeared to be in good shape body-wise which is what attracted me to it. It had its problems but the things it had wrong were good starting points for my automotive education. Fast forward a few years - it seems the owner had just sanded and painted over rust, the minor clutch issues seem to be related to gear ratio and I now know way too much about auto electronics and every part of an engine between a carb and the block.

I got an email back from the guy with the Dana 30 /35 combo. He opened up the cover for me and the ratio was 3.54, I told him thanks but I was looking for 3.73 as a minimum. For now, the question is back to the 3.73 Dana 30 /44 or installing new R&P... or, option #3, sit and wait for something better to come along.

 

[Hedgehog]

You and I are on similar paths, slightly different but similar.

I dropped $300 on a complete disk brake Dana 30 front. Then got a set of used 3.31's to replace the 3.54's currently in it. My '75 has drum front brakes and 3.73 gears. It's to bad we are so far apart, my front axle is in great shape. The whole cost of regearing V.S. many other considerations went into the decision to buy the different axle. I got lucky and got a freshly rebuilt front with new bearings, seals, rebuilt calipers that haven't seen fluid yet, rusty but otherwise new rotors. Now like you I'm facing regearing by myself.

My rear Dana 44 will get a used set of 3.31's I got from a Jeep yard in Phoenix. Again I'm regearing myself. Granted I will have technical help from Rob at Willys Works here in Tucson. He's convinced I can do it with no problem, if I can do it you most certainly can do it as well.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Hedge-Why the regear?
LG

 

[Hedgehog]

Seems like I've gone over this a dozen times. I know a lot of Jeepers don't seem to understand what I'm trying to do. I'd like to get a little better mileage, I'm not expecting miracles and it's not necessarily about money, it's about getting in and out without worrying about running out of fuel.

Where I go to hunt is frequently well over 100 miles away on the interstate. Right now the CJ is getting ~10.5 mpg, if I could get closer to 15 I'd be satisfied. Here in Arizona it's not really about power, the 360 has plenty of that, we don't have big mud or deep snow and I am not the slightest bit interested in rock crawling.

The 3.31s will drop the RPM at 65 from ~2850 to ~2560 or ~300 rpm's this might not seem like a lot but a 10% drop is something to consider.

 

[Petescj]

This thread is a product of my own indecisiveness and a bit of shyness towards both trying my hand at R&P swap (albeit with an experienced neighbor) somewhat equaled to my reluctance to part with my cash for used axles that are in worse shape than mine asthetically, but with much better -not perfect- gear #s.

HOLD ON!!!! If you have someone you trust thats willing to share that knowledge with you hands on, Id go that way.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Bet you'll never recover the cost in 'gas saved' to your out of pocket expense in this regear.
10% drop in rpm's will not net you a 30% decrease in fuel use. No-way--
Look at the shape of a CJ. It was never meant to be 'gas efficent'.

Best of luck,
LG

 

[IOPort51]

There is a gear calculator that is in just about everybodies bookmarks, except mine right now, at work. Put your drive train into it and compare it to a close ratio T-18 with Dana 20 tc and 3.54 or 3.73 gears and see where you are. The T-18 drive train would be acceptable in most circles for all but the most extreme crawling. I am thinking you are not in as bad a shape as you think you are. Just run through this and see what your final drive in 4 low is right now.

Has someone got the calculator handy to give Flex??

Wow! Awesome to come home to so many replies, thanks all.

This thread is a product of my own indecisiveness and a bit of shyness towards both trying my hand at R&P swap (albeit with an experienced neighbor) somewhat equaled to my reluctance to part with my cash for used axles that are in worse shape than mine asthetically, but with much better -not perfect- gear #s.

My primary use for the jeep is road use / daily driver / commuting. I do like taking it off road, doing some light trail riding a few times a year and driving it in the snow. Once I can get it really sorted out in good shape I'd like to be able to consider doing some more serious off roading but nothing like a dedicated crawler or anything.

I got the jeep because I've always wanted one and I really wanted to improve my mechanic abilities. I have had that opportunity in spades. The jeep has a great big suspension lift, 33" tires, and appeared to be in good shape body-wise which is what attracted me to it. It had its problems but the things it had wrong were good starting points for my automotive education. Fast forward a few years - it seems the owner had just sanded and painted over rust, the minor clutch issues seem to be related to gear ratio and I now know way too much about auto electronics and every part of an engine between a carb and the block.

I got an email back from the guy with the Dana 30 /35 combo. He opened up the cover for me and the ratio was 3.54, I told him thanks but I was looking for 3.73 as a minimum. For now, the question is back to the 3.73 Dana 30 /44 or installing new R&P... or, option #3, sit and wait for something better to come along.